ground training issue...

[Jump The Stars]

Bear with me guys, this may be a little long but I really believe history is important when asking for advice. This may or may not be a problem yet, but in case it develops as one I want to be prepared. Orion is the type of horse that likes to sit with information and digest it. He picks things up very quickly but he's also got just enough spunk in him to be a handful at times and he can be quite precautious when it suits him. Otherwise, he's very friendly and well mannered for the most part.&nbsp; However, when I first started with him he was ALL attitude and even at eight months, knew how strong he was. Case in point, a picture from his previous home apptly titled, "Whoa Orion!" <IMG src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v111/JumpTheStars/Orion/whoaOrion.bmp" border="0">
Anywho, we did a few basic respect lessons and took our time and he really turned around although from time to time we have to back up and have a little "refresher". He's always been a sweet horse, but we needed to bond and get to know each other and he had to test me...anyway such a time passed recently although I've given him most of the winter off. Since our little crash course in how to respect mom again 101 he's been great. In fact, we've bonded quite a bit as well, so the problem is this: all he wants to do is be near mommy and follow mommy and love on or be loved on by mommy. He'd even play with me if I let him (except I don't want him chasing me around and thinking it's ok let alone jumping up for a piggy back by accident...afterall, I've seen him in the field with his brother!).
Although it's nice that he really loves me, and now respects my space and that type of thing, a few new problems have arrived. #1 when he does get it into his head that he'd rather sniff something or&nbsp;go somewhere, he just walks off and trys his best to drag me with him. I have remedied this with a chain over the&nbsp;nose during any "working" time&nbsp;which is classified as any time outside of the paddock when his manners button must be on.&nbsp;With the chain&nbsp;it doesn't enter his head to&nbsp;try any of that type of thing.&nbsp;#2 he still has a short attention span. We've worked on this since our beginning together and he has improved quite a bit but he seems lately a little more distracted&nbsp;during work.&nbsp;I know this will come with time and his maturing. #3 The Real Problem. He won't luonge anymore! I only started him on the luonge at the&nbsp;middle to end of last year, more or less by using a basic lead rope and teaching him to move around me as I stood still but still close to me...bending his body. Then I put poles on the ground around me and taught him never to step over them in "my" space. Gradually I&nbsp;moved the poles out and taught him the command "out" as I did so until they were no longer needed. He picked this up like a dream and that was that. I let him have the winter to stew with it as he likes to. Recently (within the last few weeks) I've decided to put&nbsp;him in occassional&nbsp;lessons again. I don't want him being worked often, but just enough to kind of get him thinking about&nbsp;it and refreshing his memory so he's primed for the new stuff. Normally this is what I find to be the best approach with him because he does like to learn a few things at a time and then stew over them and then come back and everything just clicks.&nbsp;Well, a week or so ago he luonged perfectly.&nbsp;He walked out and&nbsp;halted on command almost instantly in both directions without falling in. (We only walk on the luonge for now). Success! Then we had a little falling out for a couple days&nbsp;concerning his barn ground manners and he was given a small&nbsp;attitude adjustment. No problem. We're friends again and closer than ever (I believe because I basically did the natural horsemanship round&nbsp;pen type thing and he finally clued in that mom was a&nbsp;"special and most supreme" horse <IMG height=17 src="smileys/smiley2.gif" width=17 border="0">&nbsp;). Except now, if I ask to whoa, he wants to walk into me, and that's only if he pays enough attention to hear it, or if he chooses not to ignore me and trot instead. When he isn't turning towards me to whoa he's just plain cutting his circle in half just to be near me.
So, I'm asking advice on this now, just in case it turns out that it wasn't just a bad day. Should I go back to poles on the ground or does anyone have any other good suggestions to get him back on&nbsp; track? Also, I do realize that his misbehaviour is part of his youth but I still want a horse that not only respects and loves and wants to be with me, but also listens to me and has some independance of his own! (In a safe way of course)

[lola s]

I would put him in a round pen.&nbsp; If he won't `whoa' when you ask, push him back out and move him on for a bit.&nbsp; Ask again and again, until he pays attention.&nbsp; If he comes charging into your space, push him right back out and keep repeating it until he can do it right.&nbsp; Once he does it right, make a big deal over him and quit on him for the day.&nbsp; The reason I prefer a round pen over a lunge line on such a young horse, is because it doesn't put as much stress on their legs.&nbsp; They can make a bigger circle.

[jax]

From your other post I understand that he is 20 months, correct?&nbsp; If so, I would say let him grow up some more before lungeing him.&nbsp; Work on manners and leading and whatnot, but I wouldn't be lungeing him yet - it is too hard on their growing joints.
Just my opinion. <IMG src="smileys/smiley4.gif" border="0">

[AWSgurl]

Hi
I can give you some advice but I need to know a few things first, how old is he, and is he gelded?

[pmc]

Lungeing at the walk at this age isn't stressful on the joints, unless you were to do it for hours...&nbsp; <IMG src="smileys/smiley2.gif" border="0">
Although you don't mention it, I'm assuming you're using a&nbsp;lunge whip when you do this.&nbsp; If not, it'd make it much easier to keep him from turning in or cutting the circle in half if you used one.

[Ruth]

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;As far as the dragging you around goes I won't give any advice because Boomer does that to me! I'm like a kid being towed by a pony! The problem is me, I get laughing so hard that I can't stop him. I use the chain if we're at a show or when I take him out to graze and that solves the problem. I can live with it. <br />&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;The attention span will improve with age, work with what you've got at the moment. <br />&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;What I do when they turn in at whoa is to point the lunge whip at the shoulder, face them fully and say "Out" in severe tones. If that doesn't move them out I flick the whip at the shoulder and make my body bigger and more serious, maybe even jump at them a little. Once they go out and stand for a second or two then lots of praise. If they trot off I repeat the whoa until the desired result is achieved. <br />

[Hannah]

Jump The Stars....I have had some experience with youngsters as well. Also, when I first bought my horse he was just 3 and broke to ride. <br /> <br />The best thing I ever did and the best advice I could give to you is get in contact and try to bring yourself and Orion to a Chris Irwin Clinic or at least, watch his videos over and over again!!!! <br /> <br />Chris is so easy to understand and is great with the horses!!! I understand Orion is still young and shouldn't be lunged a whole lot but all it takes is a few times in the round pen to establish the connection firmly then it's easier on the lead and lunge thereafter. <br /> <br />Like I said, if you can't attend a Chris Irwin clinic then get his videos, they are well worth the money. <br /> <br />Good luck <br />

[Jump The Stars]

Thank you everyone, I appreciate all the insights. Ruth, your suggestion sounds very much like what I'm doing already so I feel much better about how I've been handling him. (And just like you, I too and laughing too hard to stop him if he's not wearing the chain). Maybe our horses are long lost doubles. I guess the short side of it is that it's just going to take some time.
I'd also like to point out to everyone that although I say lunging, it really isn't. It's nothing more than a walk and I only use it because I don't actually have a round pen. If I let him loose I have to cut the arena in half and have a friend help me with him, or I have to use the lunge to do variations on the natural horsemanship methods which I find Orion responds to. I was told by many horsemen and a vet or two that walking him on the lunge would do his joints no harm. (Thank you pmc for helping point that out as well).
Again, I do really appreciate the help everyone has offered and I thank you. If anyone comes up with anything else, please feel free to PM me or add to here. AWS, he is a 20 month old gelding, actually 21 months this coming weekend.

[stephanie1]

Hi
I know he is still a baby, but if he is on the lunge and turns in at you you could try this it seemed to help with a 2 year old I used to have that couldnt lunge to save his life when i got him.&nbsp; He used to cancer in a circle looking at me a then just turn in and come right at me. NOT GOOD
Anyway I would have him on a say ten meter circle sometimes smaller just a thte walk and practice whoaing like that he seemed not to turn in if he was close to me.&nbsp; I would do that for a bit till he caught on and gradually make his circle bigger still asking for him for a halt transition.&nbsp; Sooner then later he oicked it up and he was fine after that.
I gave that suggestion because you said that he catches on fast.
Hope he is doing well and your problrms are getting solved.
GOOD LUCK

[SimsLady]

I think that fact that he is just young is that you do need to keep your sessions short and sweet as that is all the attention span they tend to have.&nbsp; With my 2 yr old I did teach her how to lunge in a round pen.&nbsp; We did little things and when I started her on the lunge line w/t at times I had a friend with me to help I did the voice commands and she reinforced them whether this was helping her stop or running around with her to get the concept of trot in.&nbsp;&nbsp; When she was closer to 2.5+ I did introduce the the long lining to her and used this quite a bit.
I do agree with the chain over the nose for respect issues.&nbsp; For my filly she only got this done when she started to become disrespectful.&nbsp; She new the difference between chain and no chain.&nbsp; I did a lot of natural horsemanship with her.&nbsp; I believe I did a good job.
I think you just have to be persistant and consice and not change your pattern much.&nbsp; They do pick up fast and get bored fast at the same time (or that is what I found with Brae).&nbsp; Just make sure you have fun with the training sessions and reward your pony ASAP when he does things right or good (which I am sure you are doing).
Good luck!