lunging verses round pen

[Eclipse's Fury]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#in the previous post breaking and training we kinda started disscussing round pens and lunging. I personally dont have a problem with round pens IF they are used properly. I know that sounds kinda weird for a round pen, but I mean by properly the horse isnt chased around in the small confined area. I would actually see a horse hurting them selves more on the lunge line then in the round pen. (getting caught in the line would be a for sure problem!) #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#     AND like I can see if you were using a round pen for litterally chasing a horse around in circles it for sure could get dangerous if the horse attempted to escape.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#      I know that usually when starting a horse on the lung line you have someone walk with them in a circle but what is the difference from having just a fence line??  either way lets face it we are I wouldnt say forcing, because I dont have a problem with lunging or a round pen and I dont chase my horses until they give in, but a better word would be not letting the horse get away with doing something other then a perfect circle. I would say I give my horse the option to do what I am asking, and if not I dont keep running him and running him around in circles but just keep a average steady pace, something that he is comfortable at and in the end he just says "ooook i guess its not that big of a deal the sooner i do it the faster i can get back to eating" lol#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#   get what im saying lol?#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[goldendryad]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I get it.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#It's how you longe, not if you longe, in my opinion. Longing your horse in circles is not how I think it should be done. I agree with using it as a tool with a youngster to teach it to walk/trot/canter quietly and follow some voice commands, or introduce them to a saddle on the longe so they get used to teh feel of it.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#You can do circles. But do them over things, ask the horse to go between two objects. Or over something. Or do a half-circle and turn. Change direction a lot. Get your horse to back up...go sideways. Play and get your horse listening. I don't beleive in working the edge off. All you do is exercise the horse mindlessly and get it even more fit so that next time you have to do it longer.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Same goes with the round pen. Get them listening and responding, not running around mindlessly. Quality of time, not quantity.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Sodapoppers]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT color=#0060bf#ed_cl#If the roundpen is a 'safe' one, there should be kick boards and it ahould be close to 7 feet high. As a general rule I prefer roundpens. It works wonders on my one guy. Turn him out and send him around 2-3 times and he comes back a new horse. My youngest hasn't made it to the round pen yet as we moved and the new barn dosn't have one. She usually goes out on the end of the line if i need to do anything though I don't do it for long periods of time. Personally I am not big on the endless circles game #ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Eclipse's Fury]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Good you get what I was saying lol Yes like I dont lunge or use a round pen for long periods of time but if I was to work a horse in a round pen for a while I would atleast make it interesting like what you said goldendryad, over trotting poles, jumps and many changes of direction! #ed_op#IMG src="/richedit/smileys/cool.gif"#ed_cl# AND yes I for sure agree with you sodapoppers!! kick boards and high walls! #ed_op#IMG src="http://forums.equestrianconnection.com/richedit/smileys//horsehead2.gif"#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Flyin' High]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#ok, personally i use both roundpens AND lungelines... depending on whats available to me at the different barns im at, and depending on the horse im working with.#ed_op#IMG src="http://forums.equestrianconnection.com/richedit/smileys//horsehead.gif"#ed_cl# heres 3 examples of 3 different horses, and what was available to me, and ALL were successful.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#at the barn where i have my boy , we dont have a roundpen.. trying to convince the BO for next year.. but as of right now, i have to go without one.  my horse has actually never been in a roundpen with me... we've just never been at a barn that had one available. so he learned to lunge without the roundpen... actually he learned wiothout someone walking him aswell. his lunging is definately a bit rusty because he hasnt been lunged in a while, but he knows all my voice commands, from walk, trot, canter, halt, easy for a slower pace and trot on for a stronger pace.now im not at all a natural horsman... i dont follow that kind of training, and dont know the techniques.. i simply know what works for me. and what i know is what i have done. my 2 y/o gelding was taught to lunge in 3 weeks. he had his days where he'd say screw you, im going home now#ed_op#IMG src="http://forums.equestrianconnection.com/richedit/smileys/Teasing/1.gif"#ed_cl#, and decide it was a good time to pull me across the arena..... but we got through them, and now he's amazing, and listens to all my aids, WITHOUT leaning on my lungeline to balance himself.#ed_op#IMG src="http://forums.equestrianconnection.com/richedit/smileys/Happy/21.gif"#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#in a roundpen however, the horse is forced to listen to your body language, and NOTICE when you want them to change directions, walk, trot, canter, etc. yes when im working in the roundpen i still use my voice commands regularily.. its just how i train, but in the roundpen im forced to be much more tuned into my horse, because unless i give the exact signal using my body and voice, the horse could very well say "screw you" and ignore me.. whats going to stop him? the imaginary lead thats attached to him? #ed_op#IMG src="http://forums.equestrianconnection.com/richedit/smileys/Teasing/12.gif"#ed_cl#during the summer i trained a mare for a lady,while i've roundpenned quite a few horses, this particualr mare extremely bright and she had all of my BODY and VOICE commands down pat in about 2 weeks. she knew walk, trot, canter, halt, and reverse voice commands, if i walked towards her hind, i wanted her to speed up her pace, if i pursued another stride, i wanted a change of pace (trot - canter, walk - trot). if i stepped away from her, i wanted slower paces, and eventually downward transitions, and if i stopped moving, she stopped as well.when i finally took this mare out of the roundpen and onto the normal lungeline, she used the aids i had already taught her, and did wonders on the lunge line.#ed_op#IMG src="http://forums.equestrianconnection.com/richedit/smileys/Thinking/3.gif"#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#my LAST example, is my old mare that i owned about 1.5 years ago. im using her as an example because she doesnt quite fit into either of the two categories.. better to linge/better to roundpen...#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#this mare was 14 when i bought her, and SPUN#ed_op#IMG src="http://forums.equestrianconnection.com/richedit/smileys/Shocked/1.gif"#ed_cl#... to lunge her was interesting in itself.. she knew all of her upwards transitions beautifully... but when she was up, she didnt come down#ed_op#IMG src="http://forums.equestrianconnection.com/richedit/smileys/Teasing/19.gif"#ed_cl#, and the pulling and dragging would start, and thats how it would go until she wore herself out and decided she would actually listen to me... of course this didnt work so well.. and some horses are just never going to be good for being lunged anyways... so i wasnt too worried. when i moved her to a barn with a roundpen, i tried her in it one day... again, great upwards transitions... but her downwards only came when i stepped in front of her and she had no choice but to stop or run me over#ed_op#IMG src="http://forums.equestrianconnection.com/richedit/smileys/Teasing/12.gif"#ed_cl#... so i started her roundpen/lunging training over, but in a way that worked for her. i noticed that she responded MUCH better to voice commands then body language, so i went off that. i didnt bother throwing body language at her. when we were in the roundpen, she was attached to a lungeline. this helped keep her contained when she wanted to have her runnig sprees...  because she didnt respond to body language, her training became different frrom most.... if she was given a command, trot for example, she was expected to trot until i gave her a different command, REGARDLESS of when i may have been facing. if she started walking, she was asked to pick up the trot again, and if she cantered, i had the lunge attached to give a slight tug to bring her back down... because she was in the roundpen, i was able to do so without her running away from the tugs.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# in the end, if i sent my mare into a trot, i could have a conversation with a friend in ONE direction, and my mare would continue around me at the trot. i would ALWAYS turn back to her however when giving her another command. eventually she was good enough that she didnt need the lunge anymore#ed_op#IMG src="http://forums.equestrianconnection.com/richedit/smileys/Happy/11.gif"#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#so to end my very long post (sorry) i truly think that lunging and roundpenning truly depends on the horse you're working with, and what you have available to you. yes i agree that roundpens are great tools, but they arent necessary.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[cadence]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I do both and I have roundpens of 2 different sizes for 2 different purposes.  One is 20 meters circumference and the other is 30 meters.  The smaller one is for ground handling, halter training, ground tie teaching, especially for babies. The larger one is for bigger horses and I always start things on a leadrope and then graduate them to free.  They learn to respect me, learn the rules of the relationship, learn to move away from physical pressure graduating to positional perceived pressure through my body position.  They learn about ropes and that whips are not dangerous things, learn about things like saddle blankets, rustling jackets, plastic bags, umbrellas and tarps. They get so used to this that by the end of the first day of tarps, they are standing quietly ontop of the tarp, quietly having their feet picked up... they have, by that point, learned to trust me implicitly that I will never do anything to make them suffer bad things and they have learned that I am a solid leader who is worth following... the herd boss without being mean about it.  My big gelding is so good with objects that a pop can with pebbles inside of it can be rattled and shook all around him, rolled on the ground, thrown in the air and rattled against his body and head, and he just stands there quietly.  This is all done loose.  Loose gives the horse the ability to make the decision to "get away" if they feel they need to and they are always allowed to go away and do their thing.  They always have 2 choices presented to them - stand quietly and calmly expending no energy and enjoying contact with me, or running and expending energy... whichever they choose, there are always consequences to their choices and they have chosen it themselves and they do it to themselves.  100% of the time in all my 25 years of training horses, they all choose to expend energy the first 2 days, then decide that's too much work and they stand quietly for the rest of everything else.  Everything happens in a calm, precise manner and they learn that this isn't such a stressful thing after all.    #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#From there, because they have learned to move away from pressure, learning to lunge on a short line is a very simple task - placing my body in a tripod tells them to move forward and away and off they go.  Gradually, they progress to a longer and longer line, learning voice commands of whoa, walk, trot, canter as they go and then they can be lunged in the open riding arena. They do not pull on the line, there is no tension on the line, they are free and happy to express their movement on the lunge line, their head is free to move up and down and side to side if they want, they are relaxed and I could hold that line with my pinkie finger if I wanted to.  There is absolutely no pulling.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#From there, they go back to the round pen and learn about saddles, bridles going on and off until they don't flinch, they don't fling their head about and the bit doesn't bang on their teeth.  A headshy horse, I take the bit unlatched on one side and tend to use a Happy Mouth, so they can't get banged by metal on their teeth and it goes on and off many times quietly until they stand with their head lowered and quiet and it's not biggie.  Same with the saddle.  Then, the rider pops on... just another object on them, only this time it's human and hey, no biggie.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Even if I have a horse that has been ridden for 10 years, I will still periodically go back to the round pen to remember all the previous stuff.  After a couple days, it's all old hat again.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#It has saved my life innumerable times.  One serious example:  My Arab gelding and I were riding at a full sprint as we were training for endurance.  We came across an unexpected barbed wire fence that hadn't been there the day previously.  When I said whoa, he whoaed, but skidded and his front 2 legs bounced across the bottom 2 strands of that wire and the top strands imbedded into his chest.  Because of all the ground work, he stood at my command, waited for me to get off and even though he was scared and trembling, with adrenaline racing because of fear and that we had been running, he still waited for me to pick up each front hoof and move it free of the wire and pluck the imbedded wire out of his chest. He stood still and waited despite the twanging sound the wire made, the sound that terrifies all animals nearly out of their minds it seems.... and yet, he stood still because he trusted ME that I would save him.  All he had were skin-deep scratches from the chest strands and nothing on the legs.  If he hadn't trusted me, he would have panicked, probably thrown me off directly into the wire and we both would have been sliced up to our deaths.  This is a deeply imbedded, profoundly real reason to me for why working with a horse on the ground whether in a stall, in a round pen, on the lunge line, whatever, so they learn to (a) respect you, (b) to follow you as their leader and your rules and (c) to trust you implicitly is #ed_op#STRONG#ed_cl#so very, very, very, very important#ed_op#/STRONG#ed_cl#.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Katie]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I have never used a round pen, but have seen them used a great deal at clinics, etc.  I would love to get one in the future, and cadence gives a wonderful description of how and why to use them.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#But just a question........I have seen both the pipe pens, and solid wooden ones.  Which are better.  I would think that the wooden with high walls would eliminate all outside distractions.  But most I have seen are the metal pipe ones, and I guess that is because they are affordable, easier to set up and portable.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Opinions?#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[graciespook]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I haven't read all the posts, but I do both. I find they have their place and uses. I also love ground driving..I can really connect with my horse and the long lines are fantastic. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Eclipse's Fury]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#same I like both#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#