Stall kicker.... any Ideas???

[Jim'n'Me]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Hi All, #ed_op#P class=MsoNormal#ed_cl#I've been lurking on this bulletin board for years.  I've guiltily wiled away countless hours (I work 12 hour shifts!) following your interesting threads.  Such valuable information!  I've applied so many of your suggestions to Jim's training, upkeep and my own mindset.  Work security (and an inherent shyness) has prevented me from posting however I have encountered a problem that has me screaming, "I need suggestions!!".  Where else could I turn but to you guys with your endless and varied ideas??  So out I come, however since I can only post outside of work my responses may be delayed but I will read as avidly as always!#ed_op#SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial Unicode MS'"#ed_cl##ed_op#?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /#ed_cl##ed_op#o:p#ed_cl##ed_op#/o:p#ed_cl##ed_op#/SPAN#ed_cl##ed_op#/P#ed_cl##ed_op#P class=MsoNormal#ed_cl# So here's the problem.... My 7-year-old gelding is a really bad stall kicker.  He kicks at the horse next door (even though he can't see him) and he kicks his walls anytime a horse is in crossties within his sight.  These are full 2 hoof strikes.  Unfortunately moving his stall is not an option.  He is already in a stall that has limited crosstie use/sight. He has been doing damage to himself with these antics (scraped/cut hocks, sore hips etc.). The barn has become alot busier this fall with new horses coming in and so it is really becoming a concern.   I've been thinking of talking to the other boarders (if I can connect with them - we are all on different schedules!) and asking them to take his stall kicking as a personal affront to 'them' and reacting accordingly i.e. enter his stall and obtain submission.  Would this work do you think?  Would it be an unreasonable request to other boarders?  Do you have any other ideas on how to deal with this????? At this point the other boards are either ignoring him or throwing him hay or carrots to provide distractions.  I'm thinking he may be interpreting this as a reward from those that give and is even angrier for those that ignore.   #ed_op#EM#ed_cl#YOUR THOUGHTS AND SUGGESTIONS PLEASE!      #ed_op#o:p#ed_cl##ed_op#/o:p#ed_cl##ed_op#/EM#ed_cl##ed_op#/P#ed_cl##ed_op#P class=MsoNormal#ed_cl# #ed_op#o:p#ed_cl##ed_op#/o:p#ed_cl##ed_op#/P#ed_cl##ed_op#P class=MsoNormal#ed_cl# #ed_op#o:p#ed_cl##ed_op#/o:p#ed_cl##ed_op#/P#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[*Giddy Up*]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#My advice is constant and consistent reminding of that he shouldn't be kicking- as in a "NO!" every time he kicks. I think this should be done by you and all staff members.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I do not recommend having other borders enter his stall to make him submit because 1)you're putting another person at risk if he should get angry and strike at them (even if he isn't that kind of horse, you still never know, and if you tell the borders to go in, then you're liable there) 2) you don't know how everyone will treat your horse- yes some people may help, but others may take the word "submit" as in smack him around until he stops- you don't want that.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Definitely do some ground work and join up stuff with him yourself so that he respects your commands then just constantly correct his behaviour. He will learn eventually if you do it every time you see/hear him do it.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#The mare I ride is a bit of a stall kicker- especially feed time, so to help with this, she was constantly told no and was fed last (eventually she would be good because she wanted her dinner). #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#You can go with kicking chains, but personally, I"m not a fan unless it is seriously needed.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[xena_n_joss]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#hmmm Xena has some bad stall habits too... She doesnt throw 2 hind kicks though. She stands there and pounds the door with one of her front feet... She has been doing it for forever and nothing works. She will do it if she sees people around, for attention and she will do it if she doesnt have her feed in her stall when she gets there, like if the other horses are getting fed before. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#She will stop if you yel HEY at her really loud but in a few minutes she will start up again... Its like any attention is worth it even if its bad attention... you know? Like those little kids that are really bad? lol#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I can really suggest anything because I havent found anything that has worked. The best I can suggest is to make the stall safe for him and maybe put rubber matting on the stall walls. That is what this one lady had done... It worked well. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Jim'n'Me]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Thanks Giddy Up!  I didn't think of the liable issue and you're right - even with explicit intructions of  'what' submission entails I wouldn't be there to monitor - So that's definately out!!  He doesn't do it if I'm in the barn as a 'No' from me will stop him.  The problem is when I'm not there unfortunately.  I'm not a fan of kicking chains either and particularly not in this barn.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Jim'n'Me]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Xena n Joss - a 'padded cell!"  Yup ... that may be just what he needs (heehee!).  Would floor matting on the walls be enough cushion do you think??#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[xena_n_joss]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#If you just have wood sided stalls then it may be enough to absorb more shock and it would protect him from being able to actually kick through any wall... .Im not sure what else you could put up? Does he have shoes on or anything? It would depend on how much work/money you would be willin g to put into it. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#You might be able to build some kind of frame in the stall (kind of like you would do with insulation?) and have something cushioning bettween the rubber and the wall. And you only have to do the height that he kicks. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Seriously though, I havent been able to get xena to stop, I do wish you luck though, but like xena he might just be an attention grabber and may not stop either who knows. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Luckily xena only pounds her door so I only have to worry about that lol.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[TequillaJack]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#What about kicking chains#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[spotz]

First I have questions.....#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
Has he always kicked the stall?  In every barn you've been in? #ed_op#br#ed_cl#
 Even if you move him to another stall?#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
For some horses it can just be a matter of not liking his
neighbour....for others it can be visual, like horses in his
space.(like being crosstied in front of his stall)#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
I wouls seriously first try to move him to an end stall or quiet stall where there's not alot of action.#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
Stall mats screwed to the wall will help protect him, but not cure him.#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
My colt used to kick when eating...would stand beside the wall &
then kick out....I hung up 3 or 4 jugs with stones in it about hip
height on that wall so he could stand next to it....if he tried the
jugs would rattle & make noise which would make him move
away.  He stopped & now will still kick out once in awhile
when eating but he is now standing in the middle of the stall, &
not kicking the walls just air!#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
Xena..I have had 3 mares like yours....pawing to the point of hurting
their knees on the stall door or making sparks on the aisle floor with
their shoes if they had a stall guard(sparks make fire & make me
nervous!)....I put a crop in front of the door & when they did it I
would quietly go to the door & tap their cannon with the crop &
yell NO!  None of them paw now & it only took about a month!!#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
#ed_op#br#ed_cl#

[pmc]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#First of all, welcome, Jim'n'Me! It's always great to have someone dragged out of Lurkerdom, even if it #ed_op#STRONG#ed_cl#is#ed_op#/STRONG#ed_cl# kicking and screaming! #ed_op#IMG src="http://forums.equestrianconnection.com/richedit/smileys//smiley14.gif"#ed_cl##ed_op#IMG src="http://forums.equestrianconnection.com/richedit/smileys//smiley20.gif"#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I agree that having other boarders enter your stall to discipline your horse is never a good idea. #ed_op#IMG src="http://forums.equestrianconnection.com/richedit/smileys//smiley2.gif"#ed_cl#  First there's the liability factor, second there's the problem of exactly how much "repercussion" to use, (the definition and interpretation of which can vary greatly between individuals!) and last, but not least, it's really not the boarder's problem.  If another boarder asked me to do that kind of "hands-on intervention" with their horse, I'd turn them down flat. I go to the barn to relax and have fun with my horse, not to put a "training session" on theirs... #ed_op#IMG src="http://forums.equestrianconnection.com/richedit/smileys//smiley2.gif"#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Having said that, there's a horse at the barn who can be a real pita when you walk by his stall.  He's okay if it's just you, but when you have a horse with you he will sometimes leap at the bars, ears pinned and teeth snapping. #ed_op#IMG src="http://forums.equestrianconnection.com/richedit/smileys//devious.gif"#ed_cl#  He has badly startled more than a few horses (and owners) innocently walking by.  Especially since he doesn't do it all the time, so it's not like he's totally predictable about it, either.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#As a precaution, whenever I have to walk my horse past this stall, I always make sure that I'm leading my horse so that I'm #ed_op#EM#ed_cl#between#ed_op#/EM#ed_cl# this horse and mine.  That way, should my horse spook, he'll jump away from me so I don't end up getting trampled in the bargain.  Whenever this happened, I would yell at this horse - very quickly and sharply, with a deep, growl-y  "GIT back!!!"  He'd fly to the rear wall of his stall as quickly as he had lunged forward, and not make another aggressive attempt.  He is, basically, just a coward it seems. #ed_op#IMG src="http://forums.equestrianconnection.com/richedit/smileys//smiley2.gif"#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#After doing this consistently for a while, this horse hasn't pulled that on me in months. He'll sometimes pin his ears as we go by, but the aggressive attacking has stopped.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Perhaps a similar response from the other boarders at your barn would work, too.  It's non-invasive, immediate, doesn't put anyone in harm's way and very easy to do. And if he gets the same response from everyone, every time, he may just think twice about bothering to do it at all. #ed_op#IMG src="http://forums.equestrianconnection.com/richedit/smileys//smiley2.gif"#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[chenders01]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Well, first of all, how many hours a day is this horse in his stall??  My first suggestion would be to get him outside, if not 24/7, at least for a lot more hours than he currently is.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Secondly, I agree with you, that having boarders throw him hay or treats whenever he kicks, has established a really bad habit for him.  He has learned that if he kicks and carries on, he will get fed.  Another question though...why doesn't he have hay in front on him in the first place?  What I'm piecing together is that you've got a horse who is confined to a stall with nothing to keep him occupied.  It's logical that he would be bored and is showing that boredom by kicking.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Thirdly, NEVER, EVER, encourage other boarders to go into your horse's stall without you being there!!  You are talking major lawsuit here, if something were to happen, and the person were to get injured.  I would NEVER enter the stall of a horse I don't know or who isn't mine, without the owner being PRESENT.  The only people who should be entering that horse's stall are YOU, the barn owner and any workers that have to go in to feed and muck out.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Okay, so, I don't know if any of that helped.  In my experience, stall vices always occur because the horse is being confined for too many hours a day.  I really would try to get him outside for more hours...ideally at least 12 each day, but the longer, the better.  And when he HAS to be in, make sure that he's got hay in front of him so that he doesn't become bored.  But DON'T throw hay at him the minute he starts kicking, as that is only a reinforcement of his bad behaviour.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Good luck and WELCOME to the board!!  Tell us more about your horse when you get a chance.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Megan Ball]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I agree with some that telling people to go into his stall is a bad idea! On the other hand though, you should tell people to stop feeding him yummy treats when he's kicking! Maybe a sign right by his stall door? My Rocky used to stall kick, but I stopped him with some spare roofing tin I had laying around. I just nailed it up, made sure there were no sharp edges and he stopped really quickly due to the noise level he created! This is at my own farm. This may not be the best solution for you however, due to the fact that their are strange people and strange horses coming and going, may start a panicy horse in those cross-ties. So the rubber matting idea seems best. Working like a bumper, the noise would go down, but the kicking never stops, he may even move to kicking a different spot?! A stall kicker may be your best bet, even though you don't like them. I have no idea what they look or how they work, but what happens if he kicks thru the stall and de-gloves his hocks or something?? Just my thoughts, but the treats have to stop!!!Treats are given only for good behaviour!!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Patricia]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Well you already said he cant be moved and the barn is busier.  With chains no one has to correct him--he corrects himself.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I have seen a huge draft cross injure himself kicking right through a side wall and back wall.  The BO made chains.  He used some small nylon dog collars probably from the Dollar store.  Then attached a length of chain.  It wasn't heavy and he figured it out fairly quickly.  He fastens them just above the hocks when he comes in at night for the evening.  This horse is very careful in his movement in the stall now.  No more injuries and bad behaviour.  No more lunging at people and kicking....He pivots in his stall now or walks carefully, not willfully.  If they are kept on for a bit you could try removing them and see if the habit is broken BUT I doubt it.  It is just a gentle reminder.  He only punishes himself and no one needs to be around to watch him.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[zooka]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I do think stall mats on the sides of the stall are a good idea and have seen it used a few times.  At least that will give the legs some protection.  I was also thinking of something like spotz said hanging stuff near the wall that your horse kicks at to give him a startle.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Hope you find something that works soon!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[xena_n_joss]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#You just need to be careful when you are hanging things in the stall, or putting kickng chains on, you really need to know your horse. The last thing you want to do is have your horse have an absolute freak out in its stall and not be able to stop it, or have it kick the stall to shrds.... which CAN happen. I realize this is a bit extreme, but none of us know this horse, and I have seen a horse freak out and kick its stall door enough to knock it off, and were talking the big heavy sliding doors. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#like how bad is he kicking them? Does he kick through the boards at all? The matts on th walls will also prevent him from being able to do that. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Spotz, we have already tried doing that with her but she just gets really pissed off. Doesnt work... So I figure for the amount that she actually is inside or does it then its not worth it. We have rubber scraps from doing her stall matts that we are going to put on her door. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Phil]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#There are a few padding options you can look into, simply enough you can put some of the rubber floor mats up on the wall with bolts an rivets.  One of my horses was a wall kicker and to save his legs i had some kick mats made for him.  The company i used was #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Searle Canvas #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#905 450 8422#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#33 Hansen Rd South#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Brampton, Ont#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#They are made with a high density foam with a heavy rubber cover with loops at either end for attaching to the walls.  These cushion a blow to the walls Alot,  my horse quick kicking the walls after i put them up because he couldn't get the sound effect anymore.  I held them up on the walls by putting a bunch of Eye rings in and using binder twine to tie them up using just one strand of twine just in case, but my horse has never be caught in it.  The Foam is a little expensive and being a custom order a stall 12x12 would probably run you about 1000 or so.  But really these would do the trick really well.  Or go with the Floor mat on the wall option.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Judy F]

We've had a number of wall kickers in our barn over the years and found
that padding the walls with thick rubber floor mats was the most
effective measure.  They protect both the walls and the
horse.  We've had horses virtually demolish their stalls (and
guess who had to rebuild them!).  The mats are 4' x8', so a 12x12
stall would need about 6 mats @ $50.00 each for complete
protection.  I find lag screws with washers (1.5 or 2" 1/4 screws)
best.  Nails tend to pull out and regular screws need 'finishing
washers' to work, otherwise the rubber pulls over the screw.#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
This is something that should not be left untreated.  ALL the
horses that were chronic kickers hurt themselves, from arthritic
changes to hair-line fractures that resulted in a broken leg (big
horse, lots of bone, snap! on the lunge).#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
Extra turnout would be good too, but is not always an option.#ed_op#br#ed_cl#

[Ruth]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I would try the kicking chains. I have dealt with a couple of stall kickers and they do work. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I don't know if tbbrat is looking at this thread, but if she is, remember Galant? He was a brutal stall kicker, he used to do it for entertainment purposes, not just at feeding time.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I've known other people who have used them with success too.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I have heard the suggestion of putting them above the hock, but have always put them around the fetlock myself.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#For the horses that pound the door, the BO where Boomer is has a couple that do this (interestingly enough a full brother and sister - and no, they weren't raised together, he brought the mare over at 4, but has had the gelding since he was weaned), and what he has done that has worked well is to tie them in the stall away from the door when they start - like a timeout. It does work, but obviously that involves someone going in with the horse to tie it up. The horse still does need occasional reminders - it isn't like doing this has stopped the banging from ever happening, but it did help, he only has to tie him occasionally now.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Patricia]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#The padding of the stall is great for the stall but it doesn't stop the horse.  The injuries from the concussion over the years will take it's toll on the horses hocks.  This kicker doesn't kick at dinner time...it is a true kicker...feeling threatened if someone is in front of his stall, next door etc.  She stated it is a double barrel kick...In time this horse will be sore.  If done right those chains do their job and the horse will not get hurt.  Every time they move and make a noise he is reminded.  He only has to kick a few times and he will discipline himself.  Try them when your there and supervise him.  If you say he doesn't kick when your there...then stay out of sight...or with someone else there to report back to you--stay in the tack room.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#It was so nice to walk in the barn without this horse baring his teeth and lungeing at his neighbour and kicking the wall.  A total turn around in behaviour...#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Ruth]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Yeah, I'm not sure why some people have an aversion to kicking chains on a confirmed stall kicker. They work, and I've never seen any downside to them - although as with anything I'm sure there's a story or two out there where something bad has happened due to using them.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Piaffing]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#The kick chains work and will not injure the horse.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#