Getting your horse to "give"

[Brünhilde]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Patricia, I don't understand how a horse that evades, goes above the bit or hollows can be helped that way.  It seems to me that such a horse must simply be reeducated to the hand and gradually learn to accept it's presence.  I see so many riders play with their horses' mouths while these poor animals are fighting it. I am convinced that these horses would go much better with a rider that leaves these mouths alone for a while in order to give the message that the bit is not there to annoy or worst hurt... which is what these animals think.  Reaching for the bit, in my experience, will gradually come AFTER the horse has accepted 1)the presence of the bit and 2) the steady contact.  And there is no shortcut for that... just patience. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#As an exemple, my horse, after the fist 5 months of training was MAJORLY curled up.  There was no way I could even touch his mouth.  It took me one full year to get his trust again. How? Precisely by going nothing (or almost nothing (can't run into the wall#ed_op#IMG src="http://forums.equestrianconnection.com/richedit/smileys/confused.gif"#ed_cl#))Now he does reach for the bit.  All I have ever concentrated my efforts on is my position and my my sense of feel.  I am not saying this is every horse's solution but it's what worked for me.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#BTW is there a way I can change my user name... it kinda suck don't you think? It was supposed to be Brunhilde.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Dee22]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Brunhilde (hehe, now that I know what your name is supposed to be ) If you PM the moderator (EC aka Kerri) She might be able to change your name for you #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#What you mention in your post is exactly what I did with my mare... for the first few months I didn't touch her mouth, just let her do her own thing basically... she was very out of shape anyway so we worked on transitions, patterns etc. But I was very minimal with the bit. After a few months I went on to use contact but no fancy hand work, I worked on regulating her gaits, tempo, rhythm etc. She was still very tense, just having the bit in her mouth made her entire body tense, I could feel it all over, her jaw was practically locked, he nose in the air etc, she was trying to protect herself.... SO, I completly took the bit away and rode her in a hackamore for three months still working on rhythm, tempo etc.... what a difference!! Totally relaxed, but still no sign of her being 'through'. After 3 months I put her back in a bit (a FL) She is much more relaxed and for a few more months I kept contact (i could have contact now without her running away) and again, worked on tempo, relaxation, rhythm etc... so, it's almost been a year and she is relaxed, has improved rhythm, tempo, balance etc. But in order for her to be 'through' you have to give her some encouragement by giving and taking with that inside rein etc. (along with everything else of course, i'm not just using my hands)... I was getting no where without encouragement from my hands but it IS becoming easier each time I ride... it used to take me over an hour to get it at first, than half an hour and the times re getting shorter... by the end of my ride my horse is relaxed and SEEKING the bit on her own... she just needs to be shown the way first.... I'm hoping that bit by bit (pun intended hehe) she will start to seek the bit without my hands but just a steady contact, my legs and seat and be 'on the aids'... but until than, she needs the encouragement #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I'm definatly not disagreeing with you, I think your right... but I tried it and for my horse it just wasn't working for her... she needs a little extra convincing #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Brünhilde]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Dee, to me, the way you worked your horse this past year sounds very good.  I can soooo identify to what you have been through!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# I'm just not a big fan of "riding formulas" like play with the inside to show your horse the way.  It is very true that we musn't have "dead hands".  Our hands must live and breath with the horse, if I may say.    To me, every action of the hand is in direct response with the horse's actions: lost of balance, lack of engagement of a (hind) leg, etc. But again, I think it is very hard to judge one's riding only by discussion.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Brünhilde]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Dee, the way you have worked your horse in the past year sounds very good to me.  I can sooooo identify with what you have been through with your horse.  I remember days where I didn't even want to get on my horse: I was so scared to even move on him, every little action on my part would get an instant resistance from him (nothing dangerous, just tenseness).#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I'm just not a big fan of riding formulas like: play with the inside and you'll show your horse tha way.  It is very true that we musn't have "dead hands".  Our hands must be living and breathing with the horse.  To me, every action of the hand must be a reaction to the horse's own actions: lost of balance, lack of engagement of a (hind) leg, etc.  But again, it is very difficult to judge one's riding only by discussion!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Brünhilde]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# Sorry, thought it hadn't gone through so rewrote it again. Forgive my lack of wxperience with PCs.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[LucasL]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I would tend to agree with you....#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I don't think that there is a formula for riding. I am rereading Charles deKunffy "Athletic Development of the Dressage Horse" and he makes the point that riders have two sets of tools - the aids that they use and the patterns that they ride. Neither of these is mechanical and neither can be prescribed for every situation.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#If you're unsure of something, the best thing is to get a good coach (with a proven record of success) to watch you ride and help you out. My own riding has improved dramatically in the last little while because I found a coach who takes the time to go home after my lesson and devise solutions to my own individual issues and problems for me to try during my next lesson.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#If you can't have weekly lessons for some reason, even one lesson a month will help you out tremendously.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Ruth]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I think of the inside rein action as vibrating rather than give and take. With Boomer I rarely have to do that, he is one of those horses that goes round very easily, but he will occasionally decide to stiffen his jaw and then just a few little vibrations and flex him back and forth and he's good again. I will use the vibrating inside rein if they need a little more help, but I know my coach prefers to keep them forward, forward, forward until they finally give to the hand.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[*rickie*]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma color=#c080ff size=4#ed_cl#I love this discussion!!!#ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma color=#c080ff size=4#ed_cl##ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma color=#c080ff size=4#ed_cl#Everyone has such great ideas, and experiences......this is like the picture perfect discussion formum!!#ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma color=#c080ff size=4#ed_cl##ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma color=#c080ff size=4#ed_cl#Anyways, I would just like to say that I agree with everyone.....here are my experience, and my ways of doing things.....#ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma color=#c080ff size=4#ed_cl##ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma color=#c080ff size=4#ed_cl#When I had my arab, it took me 2 years to find a way that worked for both of us to get him *on the bit* / *on the aids* he would evade the EXACT same was as you're horse Lix.....tilt his head.....this forced me to change the way I was asking for everything.....I started out asking with steady outside rein, and spongeing/give-take on the inside rein......then he started tilting after about 4 months of this (damn my too smart horse) Anyways, to fix this my coach had be reverse it. I was still working inside leg to outside rein, but I had a steady inside rein, and spongeing/give-take with the outside.....well that was the end of trial and error for us! It eventually got to just steady contact, and the occasional half halt on the outside. We finally got it, and kept it without any form of evading (I went through EVERY form of evading you could think of....it was soo fustrating) #ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma color=#c080ff size=4#ed_cl##ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma color=#c080ff size=4#ed_cl#Now to move onto the horse I had this summer....Mr Beau...he was one that had been ridden his whole life (he was 12) by people with hard hands, and we got him, his previous owners were scared of him, and were riding him on the trails in a western leverage bit, haulling on his face, cause they were scared to death on him (dunno why, he's the biggest sweety ever!) anyways, so we put him in a French link, and worked with side reins so he would learn to trust the riders hand, as there was always consistant contact. Then we had to teach him to look for the contact, we did this by flexing and counter flexing.......when I did this, I would hold one rein and pat his neck/whither with my other hand...worked wonders as it relaxed him, but also had him move into the contact that I had (in one hand) then we went on to take up more even contact and he would always pull on one rein....so with him, there was no *set* hold outside, ask inside thing...as it was always changing. I had to keep steady contact on both reins, and if he leaned on one rein, half halt that rein, then he would automatically lean on the other, so half halt that rein (he always leans left 1st)......of coarse this was to re-balance him.....this would go on for a bit, and then he'd get balanced, and we'd be set for about 1/2 a 20m circle.....this balanced-ness started to last longer and longer, until I only had to rebalance him a couple times around the ring, and only one rein at a time.#ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma color=#c080ff size=4#ed_cl##ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma color=#c080ff size=4#ed_cl#Needless to say, I've learned soo many *tricks* with these 2 horses, they have taught me that not every horse is the same, and you just have to find the way that works for your individual horse....however, I think I've probably exhausted all of the *ways* of doing it.....without using any kinda gadgets........well besides seide reins, I don't consider them a gadget though......#ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma color=#c080ff size=4#ed_cl##ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma color=#c080ff size=4#ed_cl#So Lix...how is your head feeling now??? and how's the learning comming along??#ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#