Getting your horse to "give"

[Lix]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#IMG src="http://forums.equestrianconnection.com/richedit/smileys/Sad/4.gif"#ed_cl##ed_op#IMG src="http://forums.equestrianconnection.com/richedit/smileys/Sad/7.gif"#ed_cl##ed_op#IMG src="http://forums.equestrianconnection.com/richedit/smileys/Teasing/15.gif"#ed_cl##ed_op#IMG src="http://forums.equestrianconnection.com/richedit/smileys/Teasing/19.gif"#ed_cl##ed_op#IMG src="http://forums.equestrianconnection.com/richedit/smileys/Teasing/3.gif"#ed_cl##ed_op#IMG src="http://forums.equestrianconnection.com/richedit/smileys/Thinking/3.gif"#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma#ed_cl#That pretty well sums up how I feel about getting my horse to "give".  My pride tells me it's shameful to ask this after riding for so long and after having taught lessons, but my logic side tells me that the longer I stay in my ingnorance, well, the longer I will be ignorant!  LOL#ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma#ed_cl##ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma#ed_cl#Ok, here goes... what is the PROPER way to ask your horse to "give at the poll", "flex", "collect", "come from behind", etc.#ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma#ed_cl##ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma#ed_cl#I'm not looking for the seat and leg aids, I know these come first, and that pace and impulsion have to be there first, yada yada.  #ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma#ed_cl##ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma#ed_cl#My horse has good impulsion, she is very energetic and I have a deep solid seat and leg, all I need to refine is the hand cues.#ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma#ed_cl##ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma#ed_cl#I have learned that in order to get your horse to "give", (once you have the impulsion, etc, all set up) you need to get the horse to bend to the inside with a "#ed_op#STRONG#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT size=5#ed_cl#steady inside rein and half halts on the outside rein#ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/STRONG#ed_cl#".  #ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma#ed_cl##ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma#ed_cl#It's literally imprinted in my head, it was drilled there year after year.  Now I'm starting to question the effectiveness of this and wonder if this way is "common practice".  I was riding last night, and working on Meeka's more difficult side, the right.  She was peppy, so we have great forward rythym, but on the right rein, I couldn't get her to give for long because she would simply tilt her head sideways.  It seemed my "steady inside rein" was working against me.  #ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma#ed_cl##ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma#ed_cl#Enlighten me, is my method rubbish?#ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Dee22]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Oi! I know how you feel Lix!!! Lemme tell ya, even though now I know how to ask for it... my horse still has troubles 'letting go' and trsuting that I'M NOT GOING TO RIP YOUR MOUTH OUT!!! LOL.... can we say 'head like a steel trap?' ... slowly getting better... okay, so I'll tell ya what I know... or what I 'think' I know hehe.... #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Skipping all ,leg seat, impulsion, rhythm stuff....#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#what I have been taught in my dressage adventures thus far... you want to have a steady contact on your outside rein and give and take with your inside... something I found very helpful was to flex my horse's head to the outside and 'than' ask for her to give, once she starts to flex at the poll than ask for her to bend to the inside. Eja will also NOT travel from behind properly unless I am doing everything else correctly... ie: posting from my hips and seat and not my legs... it is STILL taking me forever to grasp this concept, I'm SO used to just 'posting' just exactly what I've done forever... from my legs... once I start to post through my hips and using my seat she finally starts to work more from behind, use her back and flex at the poll. #ed_op#BR#ed_cl##ed_op#BR#ed_cl#Okay, I'm not very good at explaining this stuff as I'm still working on it myself and my horse has some 'issues' LOL... I'm sure other people can contribute more than I can Jax is very good at explaining all this stuff LOL #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[chenders01]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I agree with Dee.  I have always been taught steady OUTSIDE rein and half-halt on the INSIDE rein...which is the opposite of what you're doing, Lix.  It's been drilled into MY head "ride inside rein to outside leg".  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I'm finding with Tequila, because she is sooo green and knows nothing, that she is extremely stiff on her right side, to the point where she goes around with her nose sticking OUT instead of into the circle.  My coach has me using my indirect rein to get her to turn her nose in...meaning, if I'm on a circle going to the left, and Tequila is sticking her nose out to the right, I take my left hand and move it across to my right hip.  As soon as Tequila gives, and points her nose into the circle, I release the pressure and go back to my "neutral" position with that left hand.  She isn't really flexing at the poll yet...that's a loonnng way off, but at least she's learning to bend rather than counter-bend.  And, she's learning to give and that it's easier to bend into the circle than pop that left shoulder out and counter-bend.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Maybe try this with Meeka, Lix, and see if it doesn't help.  But remember, you want a steady OUTSIDE rein and a giving INSIDE rein, not the other way around.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[queenrider]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#You mention that your horse tilts their head.  Which direction?#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#If the nose is tilted to the left then the diagonally opposite hind leg (the right) is the one that is not working. (And vice versa). This is the lazy hind leg and the one you must activate.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#To get the horse to give on the inside rein do the following exercise while at the halt:#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#1.  Totally release the outside rein. Just leave it in loops.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#2.  Vibrate the inside rein and gently pull the head around as far as the horse will allow easily.  Keep vibrating until the horse gives!  REWARD!!! A piece of sugar/treat into the mouth and/or a nice scratch on the inside withers and tell the horse "Good Boy".#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#3.  Repeat on the opposite side.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#4.  Do this  on each side until you are satisfied that the horse is responding to the vibrating rein cue.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Repeat the above over several days until the horse gives his head readily.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Next progression:#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#1.  Start at the halt, do the above, but use a following rein for the outside rein.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#2.  Repeat several times.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Next progression:#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#1.  Start at the halt ask the horse to give with vibrating inside rein and ask them to step immediately into walk.  Keep asking for the inside bend.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#2.  Do this from both sides equally.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#3.  Walk a circle with the horse giving to the inside rein.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Next progression:#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#1.  While on the circle at the walk with the horse giving to the inside rein ask for a trot and insist that the horse keep giving.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Troubleshooting: #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#If the horse does not give or forgets to give then go back and ask again.  Keep asking and insisting he give to the inside rein.  You must be consistent and persistent.  Always reward.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Dee22]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I agree with Dee.  I have always been taught steady OUTSIDE rein and half-halt on the INSIDE rein...which is the opposite of what you're doing, Lix.  It's been drilled into MY head "ride inside rein to outside leg".  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#P#ed_cl#

#ed_op#/P#ed_cl##ed_op#P#ed_cl#Well, we're a *bit* different Chenders LOL, I have alwasy been told to half halt on my outside rein, and to work inside leg to outside rein.  So confusing#ed_op#IMG src="http://forums.equestrianconnection.com/richedit/smileys//smiley5.gif"#ed_cl##ed_op#/P#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[horsecrazy333]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I've spent a TONNE of time on this one.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#One thing we worked on was on a circle where they tend to have a little more natural bend to the inside.  With a steady outside hand as that is the hand they should be learning to gain balance from and should control their movements, you will gentle and softly give and take with the inside hand.  One thing we also worked on was breathing out with the inside hand and asking Emma to reach down for it.  I know it sounds wierd but it actually works.  You'll likely only get one or two good steps at first but it will come.  Then go large and reward.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I find doing small gentle flexing at the beginning at a walk and trot on the rail works to loosen them up. Nothing much and in fact there is an article in the December 2004 issue of Practical Horseman that speaks to loosening your horses jaw.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I'm always hesitant of forcing the frame or a horse to bend beyond their shoulder.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#It's a lot of patience and perserverence.  Trust me.  But all of a sudden it comes.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#If nothing else remember soft hands and as the horse 'gives' breath out with your inside hand.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I hope this helps.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[jax]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# It's been drilled into MY head "ride inside rein to outside leg".   #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Reverse that - inside leg to outside rein #ed_op#IMG src="http://forums.equestrianconnection.com/richedit/smileys/Teasing/5.gif"#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Lix, I would try a steady outside contact, and use your inside rein to flex/give/flex/give.  Not a lot, just something to keep the jaw and poll from becoming locked on the outside rein.  Keep your outside wrist flexible so that you are following the movement of the mouth (not bracing on it), while you are doing all your other things with seat and legs.  Don't flex/give so much that you are pissing her off, maybe flex every other post, nice and gently, just to keep things moving.  Think of it like going through water - keep it soft and flowing, yet still moving forward, if that makes sense.  What you want her to do is be comfortable yet secure in that she knows that you are there to support her and keep her in balance with your outside rein, and your legs and seat.  The outside rein is yours, the inside is hers (for this stage of the game, I mostly HH on the outside, because it has all the contact and therefore can recycle all the energy).#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#The biggest thing is that as SOON as she starts to give, you need to start to give as well.  This may be only slightly opening your grip on the outside if she starts to go forward/down/out, or stop flexing with the inside and give her a little neck scratch.  If she starts to go back to where she was, then start again.  But the main thing is they need to be told when they have done it right, so they know what you want.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Lix]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Me mucho backwards!  #ed_op#IMG src="http://forums.equestrianconnection.com/richedit/smileys//smiley29.gif"#ed_cl##ed_op#IMG src="http://forums.equestrianconnection.com/richedit/smileys//smiley9.gif"#ed_cl# LOL#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Ok, so basically, from what I understand, I take everything I'm doing and reverse it?  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#It's interesting to hear your input, thank you btw!  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Queenrider,  while going on the right rein, my mare will tilt her head to the left.  So her nose points to the inside of the circle and her ears will point to the outside. It's only very slight but it ends up getting me frustrated because she won't bend properly and you're right, the hind end falls apart!  Thanks for the exercises by the way!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Ok, so guys, tell me if this is the correct way of doing things:#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#When on the left rein for example;#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#-Use leg and seat to get horse bent on the inside, then hold outside rein steady and half halt on the inside rein, until the horse "gives" and as usual, once she gives, go light. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Now since we are going into this, when you guys say "steady" this means some contact right?  I mean, this hand has to be a participant also, so I assume your outside hand is maintaining/regulating the pace while your inside is half halting to make the horse bend and give at the poll??? #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#BR#ed_cl#It's going to take alot of concentration to get out of this bad habit!  #ed_op#IMG src="http://forums.equestrianconnection.com/richedit/smileys//smiley5.gif"#ed_cl# LOL#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Lix]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Ok jax and HC, just saw your posts!  THanks very much!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#i think I get it.  I'm wondering now if I've gotten into the reversed habit since I've stopped taking lessons and maybe it wasn't the instructor.  #ed_op#IMG src="http://forums.equestrianconnection.com/richedit/smileys/Thinking/3.gif"#ed_cl#Hmmm...#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I can't believe I've been backwards for the past couple years...!  #ed_op#IMG style="WIDTH: 32px; HEIGHT: 29px" height=31 src="http://forums.equestrianconnection.com/richedit/smileys/Shocked/4.gif" width=38#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Funny though, cause I *can* get a horse on the bit.  I have a good feel and a gentle hand and give as soon as they do.  I even do well at shows (not that I go very  much).  But lately, I've been having to work harder than I should and alarm bells started ringing last night when my horse was all crooked and I felt like I was fighting her.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#No wonder!  Poor horse was doing the best she could considering I was asking all wrong!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Poor old Meeka, being ridden by a dork!  LOL#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I agree Dee, Jax definitely has a way with words when it comes to explaining technical stuff! #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Patricia]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Uhum....Yup...half halts with the outside rein....Definitely spongeing the reins and getting them soft and bendable.  If they are tilting.....I ride a little bit in counter flexion..head looking to the wall BUT all other aids are saying I am still riding the other rein/proper rein....when reaching the corner it is the time to asking for the proper flexion and usually the horse take the cue with the wall for support and inside leg on.  If this can't be achieved at walk I don't even go into the next gait.  The horse should be pliable and supple before even going into trot.  This can even be done on the ground in hand.  Manipulating/spongeing  the reins in hand and getting him to bend and give in each direction.  If this is a NEW resistence...it could be something else...dental, stiffness etc.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Dee22]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#You basically have it right lix but you want to half halt with your 'outside' rein. You don't want to use your half halts to ask her to flex at the poll, that's what the sponging / give/take is for on the inside. The half halt will bring her hind end under and make her use her back creating a 'bridge' from hind end, through back to neck and poll.... kind if 'keeping her together'.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Your right, 'Steady' on the ouside rein means to have contact but not a death grip, you still have to go with the movement. #ed_op#BR#ed_cl#What I was told to do, and has worked wonders with Eja is to get her all warmed up first, than I start at the halt, ask her to flex at the poll and 'give'. I keep a steady contact with my outside rein and give and take with the inside, also keeping my inside leg on a bit but not enough to make her move forward. Once she 'gives' I tell her 'good girl' and move her into the walk, she sometimes looses it as we move into the walk but usually if I use my leg to keep her forward and give a half halt she will come back to me... as we walk, if she looses it again and falls apart I go back to halt... I keep repeating until we're doing well at a walk... once that is going well I move into trot, she will still fall apart in the trot so I repeat the same excersize again starting back at the walk/halt than into trot...eventually we get it and usually we end up truckin' around at the trot and all goes well but it takes a while. My rides are usually close to an hour and a half when really working on this stuff. I think this mainly was to help her with her rushing and 'bracing' her entire face against me but maybe it might work with Meeka?#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Lix]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#You basically have it right lix but you want to half halt with your 'outside' rein. You don't want to use your half halts to ask her to flex at the poll, that's what the sponging / give/take is for on the inside. The half halt will bring her hind end under and make her use her back creating a 'bridge' from hind end, through back to neck and poll.... kind if 'keeping her together'.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Uh oh!  Me confused again!   #ed_op#IMG src="http://forums.equestrianconnection.com/richedit/smileys/Teasing/3.gif"#ed_cl##ed_op#IMG src="http://forums.equestrianconnection.com/richedit/smileys/Teasing/15.gif"#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#So I #ed_op#EM#ed_cl#should#ed_op#/EM#ed_cl# be half-halting with my outside rein? :s #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#So that means, I'm half-halting on the outside rein and "sponging" (tiny half halts) on the inside rein?  What does "steady" mean then when referring to the outside rein?#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#If I'm sponging on the inside and half-halting on the outside, won't it look like I'm see-sawing?  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I was starting to think that steady outside rein just meant keeping a steady even contact and half halting only to regulate the pace.  But if I'm acutally actively using both hands to sponge/hh or whatever, how to I know when to use the outside rein to half halt?  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I'm almost a lost cause aren't I?  :s LOL#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Dee22]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#hee hee hee... lix, your on the right track don't worry, take a deeep breath... #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#yes, you want to have a steady contact on the outside rein and also half halt on the outside rein. You want to half halt to let your horse know to 'pay attention, something is going to change'.. so, before you turn in your circles, change direction, before a transition etc. I also half halt if I feel Eja hollowing through her back or if I feel like her back end is lagging a bit. #ed_op#BR#ed_cl#You want to 'sponge' or 'gove/take' with your inside which is differant than a halt halt... it's a fluid movement, I like the way Jax says 'like going through water', it's a fluid 'give/take' action... once Meeka flexes at the poll you can change your 'give/take' action and replace with smaller 'sponges', almost like flexing your fingers... #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#BR#ed_cl#I actually had to hold a lead rope and get jax to 'sponge' and 'give/take' on the ends so understood what to do... maybe Abbey could do something like that with you so you can have an example of what it should actually feel like?#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Patricia]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Well....you should really be spongeing/manipulating both reins.  Example a squeeze or two on the outside rein..once on the inside steady a bit if the horse resist or comes up continue in the side you feel needs spongeing....If your horse is educated and stays round you then can keep your hands steady and give when needed.  Although, when warming up to supple, flex and bend your horse you gently massage/sponge the reins both....play with the ring finger to encourage acceptance of the bit and soften him.  You should ride basically from your outside rein, like the others said NOT with a vice grip, and give and take with the inside.  You have been giving your horse mixed signals.  From what I have been taught you give your horse a half halt every time your going to ask him to do something...Like I am going to prepared for a circle---half halt tells him to be ready for an aid/command...etc.  If their tanking along half halt controls the paces...#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[chenders01]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# It's been drilled into MY head "ride inside rein to outside leg".   #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Reverse that - inside leg to outside rein #ed_op#IMG src="http://forums.equestrianconnection.com/richedit/smileys/Teasing/5.gif"#ed_cl#

#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Of course.  You're right.  I knew that.  Typing too quickly, I think.  Sawwy! #ed_op#IMG src="http://forums.equestrianconnection.com/richedit/smileys//smiley9.gif"#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[jax]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#As far as the steady contact - you should have enough pressure there so you can "feel" the mouth.  There should not be a loop in the outside rein at all, but you shouldn't get sore shoulders from the amount of pressure either.  Say your dog is at the end of the leash, not pulling but the leash is taught, and you are both walking at the same speed.  That's the same amount of pressure that should be in the outside.  Keep your wrists/elbows supple to go with the movement, and then when you need a slight HH, just stop that movement while the leg/seat gives the HH.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#The inside rein should not be halting the movement at all, so it is nowhere near being a HH.  You can either twist the pinky fingers down and towards your hip to flex, or pull the rein gently to the inside and then give (never cross over the whithers).  When she gives, just kind of "chatter" with your inside ring finger to keep a conversation up with her mouth, and give with the outside WITHOUT losing the contact.  I remember talking to Walter Zettl, and asked him what he meant by "release" when the horse gave.  He held my hands like reins, and said "this is before" with a firm fist, and "this is how you release" - all he did was open his fingers into a loose fists.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Piaffing]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#OK I try not to make it too complicated. A half halt can be done with any part of the body, not just the reins. If you resist with any part of your body that is a half halt, but the you have to release it to give. ie: Resist the seat, don't move it then release it, allow it to follow the horse's movement again. To get the horse to give you must see the inside eye. When the horse's neck is perfectly straight it will become stiff and ridgid. Right before the horse gives you will feel a spike of pressure in the contact. Don't worry you are not pulling and your arm(s) might feel like they might fall off.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Brünhilde]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Hello to all, #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I am a bit new to this forum (a bit stands for: I sometimes read but never post (don't call me a voyeur #ed_op#IMG src="/richedit/smileys/classic.gif"#ed_cl#)).  I had to get into this discussion.  I just LOOOOVE dressage and, of course, dressage talks!   This is just my 2 cents, take it for what it is:#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I always thought (and have been taught) that the horse musn't "give" but rather has to reach for the contact.  A bit of my history:  at the very beginning of my dressage "career" (well, I'm still at the beginning #ed_op#IMG src="http://forums.equestrianconnection.com/richedit/smileys//lick.gif"#ed_cl# so lets say: when I first started dressage), I was also taught this whole give and take with inside, hh with outside, flex inside, give and take outside... aaaaaah! How confusing!  Anyway, I did that and did get my horse to give. I have to specify that he's a very sensitive TB.  Guess what happened next:  back pain.  I had to start all over again... with another coach.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#This time, the feeling is different.   I would now go as far as saying that there is no such thing as "on the bit".  I would call it "on the aids".  The goal is to have your horse on the aids. The ONLY thing you want is for your horse to have a nice steady connection with your hands and have a yielding mouth. That's it.Forget about flexing the poll, head to the vertical and all that.  I tell you from my (still limited) experience, it will come when you don't think about it.  If you can get your horse to relax, to be forward and equally balanced (balanced from shoulder to shoulder, to start with, and from back to front, but that will gradually come), it will already be a HUGE accomplishment.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I'll continue later, I have a job interview (AAAAHHHHH!!!) #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Patricia]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Yes, that is so true....although, some don't have enough experience and some horses, especially the uneductated one need to be shown the way to the bit with some encouragement.  NOT every horse understands the concept to search for the bit BUT rather evade it, go above or even hollow.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Dee22]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Hi Br and welcome to the board! #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I agree with you BUT I also agree with Patricia... I have the pleasure of owning a horse that has had some 'issues' in the past with harsh handed riders, bitting issues, and god knows what else to make her a little 'difficult' #ed_op#BR#ed_cl#I tried doing what you suggested... Actually, it's in one of the threads on this forum... but my horse was just not getting it. She's almost 14 and is being re-trained from the ground up... she loves to grab the bit and run around like a chicken with it's head cut off... she just 'goes' and drags you around... sometimes you have to 'show' them what to do for the first while, until they 'get it' and than it comes a lot easier. #ed_op#BR#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#