How Far Behind the Vertical does one have to be in Level 1

[horsecrazy333]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Ok#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#So we just got home from our first ever Trillium Dressage show, first ever Dressage show.  We didn't do badly considering that and that we were up against most of the 'pros' in the Hamilton/Burlington area.  We got a 44.81 in our first test and a 46.80 in our second test (funny thing is I think we rode that one worse than the first).  I'm extremely proud of us.  I thought we had a lot of shung as Walter Zettel would say (thought the judge was awarding for collection to the point there was no more collection to be had and dragging slow paces).  We were told we were strung out because we moved forward.  Oh well  The other thing she harped on for EVERY movement was that we were not on the bit.  Honest I watched every test just about.  So here is my question for those of you that are more experienced than me.  I didn't think you had to be that 'on the bit' for Frist Level and I thought impulsion (meaning moving forward) and obedience was the name of the game.  I could be wrong so please let me know.  I saw horses break to walk, canter when they should trot the center line.  But if you could shed some light on this whole thing and the impulsion I would really appreciated it.  We did great by our standards and I have a video tape I can't wait to watch.  I'm proud of us and no ribbon or non ribbon can take that away from us!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[annie]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#At Trillium shows you have to be consistently on the bit, even at training level, and by 1st level you should be showing more carrying in the hind end.  It is my understanding that at training level, as long as you are in a frame, on the vertical and swinging through the back that is enough.  But by first level more is expected.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#The horse should never be cranked into a frame or behind the vertical.  I would expect that those riders got comments as well about riding from back to front.  They may have done better because despite being slightly over-bent they were showing more relaxation/carry etc.  It is not an uncommon mistake for horses to be slightly behind or above the vertical.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Getting your horse working in a correct basic frame is fundamental.  Even at the smallest schooling show in a walk trot test the judge will (and should) comment on the horse's frame.  The goal certainly isn't to get riders to crank the noses is, but rather to see that being above the bit is a symptom of going incorrectly, and that the horse and/or rider need more work.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Impulsion has nothing to do with speed.  It has to do with the level of push and carry coming from the horse's back end.  Just because you are moving fast doesn't mean that you have any impulsion.  It doesn't even mean that you are forward.  Conversely going slowly CAN be a gait with lots of impulsion (the piaffe for example, is an advanced example of this).  Going fast can just be evidence that the horse is running.  This just means that the gait is fast, but all of the weight is still on the forehand.  If the judge was commenting on your horse not being on the bit, this is probably what is happening.  Did the judge say you were "not on the bit" or "above the bit"?  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#One exercise I would suggest to you would be to trot down the long side of the wall and when you get to E (or B) half halt.  Really slow the trot down for 2 steps so that it feels like she is coming back to walk.  Once each hind leg has had a change to engage, send her off into working trot again.  The working trot after this exaggerated half halt should be more engaged and have a bit more impulsion.  This is a great exercise to get the beginnings of a lengthened stride across the diagonal.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Hope some of this helped!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#*edited for typos*#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Morgan1981]

Beginning at Trilluim trianing level dressage all the way up the level and circuits the judges are looking that your horse is truely connected over his back. The horse must be stepping into the bridle evenly through both reins while keeping a good even rythym. Like Annie said forward does not mean fast. It will reflect in your marks if your horse is rushing.

At training level the judge is looking to confirm that the horses's muscles are supple and loose and that it moves freely forward in a clear and steady rythym accepting contact with the bit.

First level: To confirm that the horse, in addition to the requirements of Training Level, has developed thrust (pushing power) and achieved a degree of balance and throughness.

Second level: To confirm that the horse, having demonstrated that it has achieved the thrust (pushing power) required in First Level, now shows that through additional training it accepts more weight on the
hindquarters (collection), shows the thrust required at the medium paces and is reliably on the bit. A greater degree of straightness, bending, suppleness, throughness and self-carriage is required than at First level

Third level: To confirm that the horse, having demonstrated that it has achieved the thrust (pushing power) required in Second Level, now demonstrates in each movement - especially in medium and extended paces and in the transitions to/from collected movements - rhythm,
suppleness, acceptance of the bit, throughness, impulsion, straightness and collection. There must be a clear distinction between the paces.

fourth level: To confirm that the horse has achieved the requirements of Third level. These are tests of medium difficulty designed to confirm that the horse has acquired a high degree of suppleness, impulsion, throughness, balance and lightness while always remaining reliably on the bit and that its movements are straight, energetic and cadenced with the transitions precise and smooth.

Hopefully this will help to show you exactly what the judge is looking for.

[Chisholm]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Sounds like your judge was having a bad day.  As a competor and as a judge these things do happen.  Did you have any major problems in your tests, resistances, of course etc....Were there 2's and 3's on your test.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Because even if you weren't on the bit which you must be by Level 1 you shouldn't get that low a mark.  If nothing major went wrong in your test and you performed all the moves you should end up with at least the beginning 50's.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I'm sorry you had a bad experience.  But you said you were happy with your horse.  But I would advise you maybe taking some lessons with a higher end Dressage coach and finding out more what you need to do.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[chenders01]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#How come you went straight to Trillium, HC??  Are there no Primary shows in your area?  I think that at the Primary level, you likely would've scored higher as the judges are not looking so much for collection at those shows (at Training Level) as they are for impulsion, rhythm and obedience.  I see Primary shows as sort of the "training ground" before you move up to Trillium.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#In any event, I'm glad to hear that you're happy with your performance.  If Emma gave you a good ride, that's all that really matters.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[royall]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Dear Horsecrazy 333,#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I hope you enjoyed the show despite your disagreements with the judging or the riding.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I was there as a coach and I am in this riding and showing for a very long time (over 30 years) and I can assure you that the judging at Dressage shows is usually very correct. The marks might be high or low with different judges but they are the same high or low for every rider a specific judge marks during a show.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#There is a thing called a training pyramid in Dressage (and actually in any kind of riding) which is reflected in the level of tests you ride. If one building block is missing in this Pyramid the block aboive will not work. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I watched the majority of the tests ridden and I can assure you horses with the head cranked in to the chest (I did not really see too much of that) and no impulsion will have this on their score sheet as a remark. Please keep in mind that conformation dictates the head carriage to a certain extent. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT color=#ff0000#ed_cl#On the bit #ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl#really means the horse is holding the telephone receiver correctly for his/her best communication with the rider. Too far up or too far down for a specific horse just means that they dropped the phone line because the rider is yelling or not demanding the horse to listen or the building blocks before are missing. It also means that their horse is not shifting its weight back and coming through over the back (dropped back) usually caused by rider pulling and not pushing through into the hand with their seat.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Aftrer you go to a whole season of shows and watch a lot of rides preferably with a really knowledgeable person to give you pointers about the rides you will get an eye for what is going on and should be going on in your training at home.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Going forward does not mean speed and moving on. It means moving into the aids, moving into the bridle and coming with the thrust over the back. I can have forward at a standstill and I can have above the bit and running through aids at a standstill.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#My suggestion: work with the BEST dressage instructor you can afford, even if it is only once a month. You will get a lot out of that and the money is well spent.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Patricia]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I have a few questions......How did you decided to come out at first level rather than training?  I would seriously discuss with your coach if your horse is really ready for that level.  Trillium can be more competitive.  Your horse should be somewhat on the bit even in training level.  Also when they say strung out it means your horse is not engaged behind....you need more leg but with a soft hand to get your horse round.  Some horses that are behind the bit will get rewarded as they may have everything else going for them rythmn, engaged, supple and obedient.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I showed Primary at Niagara and could have done Trillium BUT due to the expense and not showing for nearly 10 years chose to come out at Primary for FUN!  I also brought my son for his debut.  Our horse scored very well...he is on the bit and engaged...although he sometimes may go on the forehand-so we correct quickly.  He is forward BUT not running with quarters trailing out.  I would discuss things with your coach and review you tests with him or her.  Sometimes even getting an impartial opinion or a few lessons from a different coach have been known to help quite a bit.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I am assuming you showed at Glanbrook?  If you feel the 'pros' as you called them were #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#in AA division then I would speak up and talk to someone on the executive.  They should be in the OPEN division.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[horsecrazy333]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Thanks for the feedback everyone.  We will be seriously rethinking the rest of the summer.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Guineapigger]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#HC333, don't be discouraged.  It is my first year of trillium dressage too, and there is a lot to get used to.  For example, we did some piaffe, many airs above ground.  Oh, by the way, we were riding training 1 and 2  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I would suggest - as others have too - that you try training level to start with.  You can always move back up once you get the hang of what the judge wants.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#However, since you have already paid for passport and memberships, and entries and trailering etc. will be about the same for primary/trillium, I would stick with the trillium if I was you, since the ring was much better.  (assuming you are staying with Glanbrook).#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I don't have my tests back yet as I left too early, (I rode first in TL2) but based on my scores and watching my video, I would say I got penalized very very severely for being too tight/curled and not forward enough (my horse has very upright conformation, as someone above mentioned).  I was very forward and open in my first test, looked great, into the contact, etc...got 62% or something - but almost got bucked off in my last canter circle!  Horse was having a bit too much fun.  I'd imagine I got about a 2 on that move, and about the same on submission!!  So, I cooled it down for test #2, rode slow and safe - and score went down 7%.  I was better off pushing the envelope, riding forward into that contact, even if things got a bit hairy.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#So don't worry, we are all trying to find that happy medium!!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I must say, judge, scribe, and tack check lady were all great, very understanding of new horse/rider mess-ups.  It was a great day, and I am looking forward to our next show, even if we did not exactly knock-em dead, either!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#P.S - re: pro's riding with ammies - we all rode together, but they placed the class separately, maybe this is what you observed?  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[horsecrazy333]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Thanks GP#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Definitely food for thought.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#We have a big meeting to discuss the rest of the summer tonight.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Glad you had fun and the footing was quite nice.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Ruth]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Your horse should be consistently on the bit at 1st, and should also be developing consistent self-carriage and suppleness. They aren't looking for collection yet, but the potential for it. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#