Judging results

[Judy F]

Official judges in Canada are ranked: 'l' = learner, new participant in
Dressage Canada learner judges program, can officiate only at non-EC
(informal) shows; 'r' - recorded -- carded by Dressage Canada, has
attended and passed a judging clinic, competed and won 60% at 3 EC
dressage competitions at Second Level under 3 judges, scribed a minimum
of 12 hours at EC national dressage competitions, etc....  can
officiate at informal dressage shows, plus can judge all levels at EC
primary shows, to Second Level at EC provinicial (Trillium) shows.#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
'B' - Basic judges must have competed as a rider at Third Level and
earned at least 3 scores of 60% or better, scribed for 12 hours at
Third Level Classes at EC national shows, etc... and can judge EC
provincial shows to 3rd Level, EC National shows to 2nd Level and
co-judge #rd & 4th levels.  #ed_op#br#ed_cl#
'M' - Medium judges must have held a B judge's card for at least 3
years, competed at PSG, and meet all sorts of extra
qualifications.  They can judge all EC levels at national shows
and co-judge FEI classes with a Senior or FEI judge.#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
'S' - Senior judges must have been an 'M' judge for at least 2 years,
competed to Intermediaire 2 (56% under 3 different judges), and meet
all sorts of other criteria in judging competitions including
provincial and national championships.  Senior judges are often
former FEI judges (over a certain age) or are candidates for becoming
FEI judges (need to have judges a minimum of 50 GP rides before
applying!!)#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
As you can see, it takes years to work your way up the grades, and
judges are assessed by senior judges along the way at clinics. 
Higher level judges must meet higher standards and are also better at
telling if your horse is truly on the bit, or just pretending, if he is
'late behind' in the canter transistion, and much less likely to
overlook inaccuracies and use of voice.#ed_op#br#ed_cl#

[Kerri]

Judy - I wouldn't agree that higher level judges are better at seeing#ed_op#br#ed_cl#things more so than a lower level judge. Ideally yes, they should...but#ed_op#br#ed_cl#as with anything, the higher the level of certification does not mean#ed_op#br#ed_cl#the higher the level of skill. I know many B and M judges who are#ed_op#br#ed_cl#better than their S colleagues when it comes to judging. #ed_op#img src="richedit/smileys/Happy/14.gif"#ed_cl##ed_op#br#ed_cl#
And ideally yes, the judging should remain the same whether it is at a
Primary level or a National level, but realistically.......I don't
think it is always the case. I believe encouragement plays a
significant role at Primary and non-sanctioned schooling shows. However
I would say that you would be less likely to see differences between
Provincial (Trillium) and National level shows (but I'm not convinced
that you would see no differences at all).#ed_op#br#ed_cl#

[Judy F]

I agree Kerri, some B judges (and 'r''s) are really good at spotting
things, very even in their marks, very confirmed when it comes to using
the 'scale of marks.'  On the other hand, some of the worst
judging I've encoutered has been done by FEI judges.   #ed_op#br#ed_cl#
#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
You can also run into 'consistency' problems with FEI judging panels,
as they all try to guess what sort of mark the senior judge will give
each movement.  This can really show up during freestyles if the
competitor omits a required movement.  Or you get one judge from a
particular country who simply does not believe any North American horse
should be awarded more than '6' for anything.  I can remember,
about 12 years ago, we had a French judge on our CDI panel who was
low-balling everyone.  We were posting marks for each judge and
someone complained about the discrepancy.  Next day, her marks
were more in line with everyone else's.#ed_op#br#ed_cl#

[Guineapigger]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Judy F, my experience has been in line with what Elatu says - my results at Palgrave closely mirrored my results at Trillium shows.  I know I am a sample size of one, anecdotal evidence - but I have not seen evidence of soft judging at Trillium level.  My scores were about the same, but the winning score was usually really high, versus mid-60's for Trillium, which makes sense, since you would expect the best to be there. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#My only lower than usual score was in a class where it appeared to be the trend - it was an open class (test of choice, like a warmup) and even with the pros playing along, the class was won with a 63%, versus typically 68 - 70% for the other classes. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#And, as I mentioned before, my lowest score ever (besides one class where my horse went nutso) was at a schooling show from an "r" judge.  I have watched the video 50x and still don't quite get it.  I got straight 5's for collectives, with no comments - I had never gotten below 6 on anything but submission before, and sometimes get 7 for gaits and/or rider   So that blows my belief in the "friendly, encouraging, schooling show" theory.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Judy F]

#ed_op#span class="postbody"#ed_cl##ed_op#font size="2"#ed_cl##ed_op#span style="font-style: italic;"#ed_cl#"And, as I mentioned before, my lowest score ever
(besides one class where my horse went nutso) was at a schooling show
from an "r" judge.  I have watched the video 50x and still don't quite
get it.  I got straight 5's for collectives, with no comments - I had
never gotten below 6 on anything but submission before, and sometimes
get 7 for gaits and/or rider   So that blows my belief in the
"friendly, encouraging, schooling show" theory#ed_op#/span#ed_cl##ed_op#/font#ed_cl#."#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
#ed_op#font size="3"#ed_cl#Yup, seen that too.  'r' judge at a schooling show
sticking to the rule book.  Show committee realizing no one will
qualify for championships (60%) or even Reserve (58%).  'r' judge
will NOT be invited back next year. #ed_op#img src="/richedit/smileys/cross-eyed.gif"#ed_cl##ed_op#br#ed_cl#
#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
I hope we will see more consistency between Trillium and National
scores now.  It can only help with the Trillium circuit and
improve its value and status as a proper provincial dressage forum and
not just a trumped up set of primary shows.#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
#ed_op#/font#ed_cl##ed_op#/span#ed_cl#

[Guineapigger]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#But Judy, she doesn't get to stick to her own special rule book, and not give me any constructive comments to let me know what might be contained within it. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Ironically, in the nutso class where I figured "she hates me anyways, and this is a schooling show, might as well school" I got BETTER collectives.  And there is *no way, no how* this should have happened.  I suppose they were pity marks or something.  I would have had more respect if she had stuck to her guns and given me a 27% or whatever.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#How can she be so out of line with what other S/B judges are observing at Trill/Nat shows?  Are you implying that they are not following the rules?   And, say you are correct, and she is the only one out there really fighting the good fight, following the rules - and I sat down and had a heart to heart with her to really understand and change my ways so as to score higher under her - what purpose would that serve?  She is obviously not in tune with scoring at rated shows, and if I am going to show - and hopefully win - that would be counterproductive.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Other people in the class DID get 60+ if I remember correctly.  So it was not that she was particularly low scoring, she just had issues with my ride.  I am sure she will be invited back.  And, since schooling shows are for schooling, I would probably go again for time in the ring, and just ignore her opinion.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Judy F]

She did NOT follow the rule book.  Judges are supposed to give
reasons for low marks, anything under 6 normally, definitely any mark
under 5.  #ed_op#br#ed_cl#
#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
Sometimes riders try to ride too accurately, too carefully, for their
level.  A test that lack energy will score much lower than one
where the horse is barely under control (tactfully ridden) and the
rider has to struggle to keep it inside the ring.  I remember one
show where my friend rode her usual quiet test to a low 50's
mark.  I told her the judge was looking for energy, so she threw
caution to the wind and REALLY rode her second class.  That mark
was much higher -- in the 60's -- and we all had a good laugh.#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
The bottom line -- ride your best, work on rhythm and energy, sit up
straight and smile.  If nothing else, drive them crazy!!!#ed_op#br#ed_cl#

[Ruth]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I don't necessarily agree that a smaller #ed_op#STRONG#ed_cl#quality#ed_op#/STRONG#ed_cl# horse will be penalized because of it's size. I used to show a 15hh STB Trillium up to Medium 1, and there was only one show in 4 years that I felt the judge just didn't like her. What they used to slay me for was her canter, which was appropriate, she didn't have a good canter so of course we would get lower scores on canter movements, but that was not "just because she's small", those were the marks we deserved. I remember one judge saying to me after a test "Your horse has a quality of trot that we do not often see at this level, but man, you've got to do something about that canter." #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I do feel that at least at the time when I went up from Trillium to National with Boomer that there was a big discrepancy in the judging. Our scores went from high 60's low 70's (we even got a 76 once), to low 60's and while I won't say I felt like my tail was between my legs, I realized I had a lot more to learn than I thought I did! I took it positively though, and used it as constructive criticism. What I get frustrated with are ribbon-chasers, and I really feel there should be some kind of system in place, maybe something like in Holland where you have to earn your scores, and be forced to move up if you have a certain number of scores above a certain percentage. I rode against one girl last year who got a 78%, the second place horse was 68%. Sorry, but somethings wrong with that at 1st Level AA.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I was talking to an upper level rider from BC and she had an interesting thought about judging to help level the playing field. I'm not sure if I agree with her or not, but it's an interesting concept. She thinks that if you go out on a Shetland Pony and it does a 20m circle with beautiful bend, rhythm and accuracy it should get it's 7 or 8, and that when the better mover comes along it shouldn't get any better score because it's a better mover. After all when you read the score sheet that's what it says the judge is looking for. Then if the judge wants to slay the Shetland Pony in the collectives under paces or whatever fine. Her point of view is based on her barn full of AA's who spend $10,000 on a horse and work their butts off only to be beaten by the financially advantaged person who has a $40,000 horse in full training. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#In any case I don't think the solutions are easy.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#A poster on COTH suggested making training based movements such as leg yield the ones that have coefficients as opposed to movement based movements like lengthenings, in order to reward correct training as opposed to flashy gaits. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#My feeling is that it probably sorts itself out a bit at higher levels (although I'm sure there's problems there too, but having not ridden past Medium 1 I don't know what they are), those big movers that do so well at the lower levels are often difficult to collect, and a good canter becomes much more important than a big, breathtaking trot.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Elatu]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Many, many moons ago.....up until 1977, we had an up-grading rule in place in Canada. If you got more than 60 points in 1 show season at a particular level in a National show, you were forced to upgrade to the next level.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I can remember back in 1976, as a kid, still wet behind the ears, I rode my horse Mikelle in the Preliminary and Novice classes...akin to Training and First Level. If you scored a 65%, then you would receive 6.5 upgrading points, and when you got to 60, you were forced out of the level you gained the points in. Well, we went to a scad of shows that year, and did pretty well. That fall, I got a letter from EC (which was the Canadian Horse Show Association at the time) stating that I had gained too many points and I would be up-graded to Elementary-Medium 1 Levels the following year! So, what was a kid to do? #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I was hell bent and determined that I was going to make it up to the next 2 levels, and I did.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#This rule gave you two choices; it either made you work harder to advance, or it made you stop going to too many shows, because if you got to the magic number, you had to up-grade.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Ruth]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I think that something along the lines of 4 scores over somewhere in the neighborhood of 68-70% from let's say 3 different judges at 2 different shows on the same circuit (ie. Primary, Trillium, National) should force you to move divisions. So say you were showing 1st Level AA Primary  then you would have the choice of moving to either 2nd Level AA Primary, 1st Level Open Primary, or 1st Level AA Trillium or National. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I can, however, see a difficulty with championships if you were required to switch up mid-season, so maybe for the next season would be more practical. I know sometimes people do underestimate how well their horses will do, and I know the girl I referred to in my previous post who got the 78% has moved into Open, but there are some ribbon-chasers out there. I just really think if someone is scoring consistently near 70% at a level it's time to move along.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Tabby]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I was talking to an upper level rider from BC and she had an interesting thought about judging to help level the playing field. I'm not sure if I agree with her or not, but it's an interesting concept. She thinks that if you go out on a Shetland Pony and it does a 20m circle with beautiful bend, rhythm and accuracy it should get it's 7 or 8, and that when the better mover comes along it shouldn't get any better score because it's a better mover. After all when you read the score sheet that's what it says the judge is looking for. Then if the judge wants to slay the Shetland Pony in the collectives under paces or whatever fine. Her point of view is based on her barn full of AA's who spend $10,000 on a horse and work their butts off only to be beaten by the financially advantaged person who has a $40,000 horse in full training. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#In any case I don't think the solutions are easy.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I used to think this was how it worked.  Unfortunately, it's never as clear-cut as this.  Often, neither the Shetland pony nor the ubermover will make perfect circles.  While the SP's circle may be slightly more accurate/rhythmic/better bend, the fancy horse would still need to make an outright error before the scores would balance out between the 2.  The fluidity of the fancy mover's gaits and likely balanced conformation will mask smaller mistakes compared to the pony whose small size will result in many more steps/longer time to maintain that bend, rhythm and accuracy.   #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#A lovely mare I rode years ago could go hollow or go on the forehand and rip my arms out of their soccets but she still maintained a lovely outline and if I could stay seated, we still looked ok.  If my TB goes hollow - he instantly looks like a llama.  If he pulls and goes on the forehand, his head drops between his knees and I'm nearly yanked out of the saddle.  Both are blatantly obvious and look terrible by anyone's standards.  It might only happen momentarily within that 20 metre circle, but you sure can't award a 7 or 8 when it happens.  My mare did it as often as my gelding, but due to her conformation, it just didn't show and so we weren't penalized.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Keetee]

In terms of the upgrading, I agree that people should move up if they
continue to win everything, but I also believe that this has to be left
as a personal choice.  Some people do not have the ability, or
have a horse that does not have the ability, to move up.  For
example, you may have a horse that can do well at third level but can't
do a decent canter pirouette and so fourth level is really a
stretch.  Why should we as the dressage community stop this
horse/rider combination from continuing to show at the level they are
comfortable at?  We all want our ribbons but if we are competing
against a "lifer" at that level, we just need to work harder.  As
a sport we need to encourage participation, not place limits on
it.  

[Ruth]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#If they are showing AA they could move to Open and still stay at the same level. I am talking about combinations that are consistently scoring at least in the upper 60's, and people who show well below the level they're schooling at in order to win. There is a difference between being competitive and ribbon-chasing. So if your 3rd Level horse with the shaky pirouette is winning every class with a 70% I think they should be encouraged to work on that pirouette by being made to move up. That combo is not encouraging anyone to move up from 2nd to compete against them. If on the other hand it is consistently scoring 63%, then that's a highly competitive 3rd Level horse that anyone can aspire to pull their socks up to be competitive with. I could have kept my horse at 1st until he had a better lengthen, too, but where's the personal challenge in that? A friend of a friend got a 70% at 1st this year and didn't even get a ribbon! At a National show. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Adpaga]

Showing nice warmbloods myself I have no PB beeing overscored (nice
word for beaten hey!) by a fancy pony. It has happened and was fair. I
also bring along two students, none of whom ride fancy dressage horses
(we call them northern warmbloods) . And they both do well, and have always been judged fairly, with marks and comments that reflected their rides. Those rides happened at the Palgrave and York nationals, so I cannot agree with the trend that would make us believe that only fancy horses and/or fancy names get the better marks.

On the other hand, I can testify having been a ribbon chaser .
It does you no good! For some time, I rode in local shows, still national circuit, but with none of the big guns present. We avoided southern ontario like hell! Got lots of red rubbans , lots of high scores, but even more illusions with regards to my riding quality, my training skills, and the development of my horse... When we changed environment, it was quite a shock!! No, we were not as good as we thought we were, and PSG will wait a bit. And after a year of having been put back to reality, hard work and training, we are now adventurous and go out to the big shows. And guess what? we never had so much fun! The ribbons are not automatic-release" anymore, the scores don't sky-rocket neither, but everything feels right. And we are proud!

So don't let rubban chasers spoil your game! Show your best, give the
judges a chance to reward a job well done by doing the best you can and
don't show a level in which you are still schooling 40% of the movements!.

[Tabby]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Are the judge rankings published somewhere?  How can I find out what level judge is/was at my show?#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[draftdriver]

Equine Canada has a list of judges on-line. Find it http://www.equinecanada.ca/Sport/OFFICIALS/find.html here.