Judging results

[royall]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#This is just an obersavtion and I am not even sure if there is a solution to this. This is not about specific horses or events but a mixture of happenings I observed. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Lets say there is a super talented horse showing in Training Level to Level 2 range. This horse has 2 to 3 hick-ups during the test by breaking in the canter, cross cantering for a few strides, shying 5 strides at the judges table, crow hoping at a canter departure and similar. But because of inbred talent this same horse also show lovely movement, a breathtaking lengthening although it is apparent that this horse peorms to approx 70% of its ability - rider induced or horse offered.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Another horse in the same class with really no inbred talent or movement of course misses all the sparkle but performs with the consistency of a metronome, on the bit 100% and it is plainly visible that for instance in the lengthening this same horse gives more than 100% of its ability, which is for this horse more than it a real extension for the first horse would be. Transitions right on the spot and so on.It is also apaprent that the rider is doing everything in his/her ability to ride this test and has done some sterling work at home.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#The tests lets say are marked 64% for the first horse and 59% for the second horse. This does not pertain to higher level tests as mentioned before but somehow the scores should reflect differently.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I am not saying that a better or more talented horse gets a higher scores because of its looks or talent as the quality of the movements is definitely better. I deliberately choose the lenghthening as an example as this will be physical more of a lenghthening in the more talented horse. Even the not so collected frame of the talented horse will look much better, but I still have a problem with the scoring with definite disobedience sugar glazed versus solid work performance in plain unglazed.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#The second score issue is the fact that one rider has a very good performance and ends up abrely 1/2 percentage in front of another rider because of "encouraging scoring".#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Please keep in mind that this is the overall impression without scoring single movements as a judge is doing. I have tried out of curiosity to do shadow scoring at one show and it is pretty hard especially as I usually don't do that and I am sure it gests easier with experience.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Maybe judging needs another coefficient mark for overall impression or an additional mark for obvious trying harder despite lack of natural ability versus 60% offered and the ability for 100% is obvious or one to two stride hickups have to be taken more into account (which BTW are judged very differently from "movement not performed at all" to not even recognized in the scheme of the whole movement).#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[pony crazy]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I have been in the situation for which you have described.My mare albeit she is small does some movements better than a warmblood,especially extensions.The only reason I received the marks that I did was because mainly of her size.I mean I was competing against my own coach and he told me that with my ride I should win the class.Well that was not to be,himself and two other people on bigger horses beat me.There seems to be a little bias with some,not all,canadian judges.This mare competed for approximately 16 years and the only good marks seem to come infront of foreign judges.I believe tests should be marked based on ability not the size or breed of horse.But of course most of the time the movements are going to be more defined and clear on a horse with a larger stride.This may have strayed a little from your original topic.Judges SHOULD score the more consistent test higher than the other,but the flashier moving horse is going to get the higher marks on specific movemnets ie the extension,which have a coefficient which will possibly give them the higher score.Speaking from a judges point of view,depending on the level I judge I look for consistency over nice movements here and there.If a little kid comes in and does everything well I will keep that in mind for the next rider,who does have their horse in a frame but isn't accurate or has bobbles with transitions.But of course this is just one persons opinion,take it for what you will.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Patricia]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Could it be just a CERTAIN judge.  I have always been riding the obedient, responsive, metronome (sp?)...not the prettiest rider BUT effective.  I felt most times I was rewarded accordingly.  Extravagant movers get rewarded BUT those blips take away from the ride and should be marked accordingly.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Chisholm]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Ok here comes the JUDGE! #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# Horse A may have higher marks in some moves than Horse B but  A gets low marks for the problems.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Now where the difference may lie in this case is that Horse A got higher Coffiecents in Paces and Rider.  Now he would have gotten lower marks in other 2 co offiencents.   So then it all balances out.  But say Horse A gets say 2  8's that would make the difference.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#But again it is subjective judging and maybe the judge didn't overly like horse B.  Maybe he was obedient, accurate but say not forward enough, or didn't have enough bend.  Or enough lengthen.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#But this is the joy of dressage one mark is all it takes to make the difference.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#And by the way instead of saying breeding, lets just say talent.  Some horse just have more talent and presence in the ring.  I have one of the those horses.  I can get 3 and 8's in the same test.  My guy can pull off a beautiful lengthen but then try and buck me off on a canter circle.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#It will be interesting to see where this subject goes.  Hopefully Kerri will get on her to, being a Basic Judge, I'm only a "r".#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[pony crazy]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I have been on both sides of this subject.I have ridden the small horses..one arab that moved like a warmblood and gotten mid 50's,big moving warmblood cross and gotten high 60's and then have ridden small morgan cross that moves bigger than she should and gotten 60's.I do believe that some judges look at the breed rather than the talent sometimes and of course that's not right.I rode one test on this warmblood cross and after asking for canter and immediately into a 20m circle he decided to buck...thinking that my mark would be low for that movement I knew what to expect.And of course I took into consideration that it would factor into the general immpression marks.When i got my test I was surprised to see a 5 on that one movement where it clearly should have been lower and it somehow didn't even reflect in th GI marks where I got mostly 7s and 8's.My mark for the test was higher than expected as well.Obviously not matter what kind of horse you ride if you have difficulty with certain movements you can focus on a stronger area.But I do think some judges are bias to breed,size and striding.But again just my opinion.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[draftdriver]

I think that the OP doesn't understand that horses are judged against an international standard. Some horses just aren't capable of performing above a 6 level in their paces, no matter how hard they try. Others have 8 paces to start with, and any problem, such as a moment of strong resistance, will bring them down from an 8 to a 7, whereas horse A will go down from a 6 to a 5. Natural ability gives some horses an advantage over others.

I was at a judging certification clinic where the test horse did a nice extended trot across the long diagonal. Just as the horse reached the end corner, two stable dogs ran into the arena, and the horse shied for a couple of steps. When we were asked to display our marks, most gave 7s, but one fellow gave a 4. The clinician reprimanded him thus: "This horse just did more than 60 m of lovely extended canter, and you're going to penalize him for 2 wrong steps at the end? No, that is not correct." Now, had the horse shied at every corner rather than just in this one instance, the judge would have the latitude to penalize more each time, as the horse would be clearly showing disobedience and/or inattentiveness to the rider's aids.

I suggest the OP sign up for an Educate Your Eye clinic given by an upper level judge. They are very informative sessions.

[Guineapigger]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Well,  "calm, cool and ok, with head in pleasant looking position" and "moving correctly, forward, into contact" are not  at all the same thing, and sometimes I think riders get this confused.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#When horse is moving correctly, and forward, really working into that contact, everything improves - they look more impressive, expressive, free - BUT - there is a big risk involved with asking a greenie to give you more (and I know - I have asked!!).  You might be served up a resistant ugly 3 or 4 (oh, do I hafta!!) , followed by an 8 (result of your efforts).  Not asking for anything more from your horse if it is plopping along in a pleasant fashion, you are not likely to get any negative or particularly positive reactions, and as a result, can ride a calm, boring test.  Should this win?#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#If someone is demanding the best from their horse and getting 3-8-3-8, they might also get rewarded with a 7 gaits (because their correct efforts have resulted in better freedom/regularity), and beat someone who has a steady eddie 6-6-6-6 with 5 for uninspired, blah gaits.  Probably will get a better rider score and impulsion too (but lower submission).  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#(of course the horse that is being asked for perfection and responding correctly should really smoke everyone!!  But we are talking about the middle of the pack here)#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#And this means that to casual onlooker, nasty flashy horse beats pleasant do-good horse.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#But really, the rider that is on the right track - asking for correct response, and insisting on getting it - is beating the rider that is just riding a pleasant pattern from letter to letter.  This is the way it should be, as first rider will overcome these resistances in time, get better and progress, and second rider won't if they don't start asking for more from their horse.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I think it is even more troubling if steady eddie who is not being asked to work correctly soundly beats horse that is on the right track but a bit erratic - because judge is sending message to person on dead end track that they are doing the right thing.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Chisholm]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#GP well said, you are right on.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Yesterday I rode an example of this.  The conditions from rain were horrible. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#So I my horse was extremely obedient but not through his back, so we got 7&6s with a couple of 5's.   If he had been over his back we would have got 8's but then in those conditions I was risking problems pushing him more to the limit.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I scribe for a top FEI judge who gave one horse and rider team 8 for paces, 6 & 6 and then 8 for rider because the rider handle the problems so beautifully.  This was a test with 4&3's in it because of explosions etc... But a very talented horse!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[pony crazy]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I too have scribed for many judges at every level and Have seen marks given away but also appropriately given as well.Obviously judges see things differently than others.Some are more picky.For example some judges like flicking action in an extension rather than ground coverage.I'm not saying that is true or not just using it as an example.Every judge is different I have just learnt to ride the same way everytime I'm infront of the same judge.I shouldn't have to change the way I ride for every single judge but sometimes it works and my marks are consistent with that judge.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[GEF123]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#It does truly vary from judge to judge, situation to situation, and I think also level of show.  Less inherent natural talent (gaits, ability to carry, etc.) is, in my experience, overlooked more at schooling/primary/trillium shows versus National (that's just my opinion and in my experience).#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Having said that, at the CornerStone National show this past weekend, 2 of my clients' horses that I showed were Thoroughbreds, both of whom competed in the Open First Level Division.  The #ed_op#EM#ed_cl#majority#ed_op#/EM#ed_cl# of horses in the class were bigger moving warmbloods -- and I knew going in that for the most part, I'd go in basically starting at 0 and earn every point, whereas the other two clients' horses I've been showing First level in the other shows this year (both big moving, impressive Oldenburg geldings), I start at 100 and #ed_op#EM#ed_cl#lose #ed_op#/EM#ed_cl#points.  Regardless, the 2 thoroughbreds this show did very well in some pretty big classes against some #ed_op#EM#ed_cl#nice#ed_op#/EM#ed_cl# horses -- the one came 2nd in both classes on Sunday (First Level Test 3 Open and First Level Test 4 Open), while the other one came 3rd and 6th....they did well in the other classes, too (I had quite a few rides, and to be honest, anything prior to Sunday's now a blur).  They win their marks based on consistency, correctness and accuracy, versus sheer talent and ability.  But, that's the aim, regardless, right?  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Would I have done better if I was to do the same test on a more naturally talented horse?  Of course.  But, doesn't mean good results can't come from a horse with less movement and lesser inherent quality.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#The problem lies when a lovely, big moving horse that's poorly trained and does a poor test does better than the well trained, not-so-grand moving horse, which I've definitely seen happen.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Fritz]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#First of all, GEF, I want to take my hat off to you for your performances this weekend.  I rode only 2 tests a day and was exhausted - I know you rode many more than that.  You are a true pro.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I saw one of the tests GEF is referring to on a TB - First Level Test 4 I believe.  It was accurate, consistent, obedient, and lovely to watch.  Although the horse did not move as nicely as some of the other horses in her class, it was nice to see the horse get rewarded for doing nothing WRONG.  Other rings, some of the more less "fancy" horses were CREAMED in favour of the fancy movers, even when they rode lovely, accurate tests.  It's unfortunate, but it certainly seems to happen more with some judges over others.  It does seem far more pronounced at the National level than in Trillium/Schooling.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Guineapigger]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Getting out to a National show and seeing how the pros vs. (most) ams ride their lower level tests is extremely enlightening as well - really helps you to clearly see what is winning and what is not both in terms of rides and horses.  I know it is tempting to go over and watch FEI stuff, but instead sit and watch a whole tedious training level pro class, then an am class.  Watch the warm-up as much as you can, too, as well as the actual rides..#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Pros are just so ON their horses - they are demanding, and getting sharp, correct responses every time. Forward, precise, asking for through/bend etc... sometimes you can see the little hiccups here and there under the surface - maybe a fussy canter transition - but they are quickly eradicated and horse is put right back on track.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Then watch the ams...many are doing fine, but are just not as quick or as firm or as insistent as they need to be, so even when they give an appropriate aid to improve way of going - to straighten or drive on or whatever - and get the right response - eventually - it is too slow coming, not sharp and clean and so you can *see* the correction.   It is not wrong, and still more correct than not fixing - but not where it needs to be for a GREAT ride, and to an onlooker, not pretty.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Lastly... contrast the ams (no pros I saw in this category, just ams) that are just cruising around pleasantly from letter to letter, not straight, not forward, piloting rather than riding.  After watching the pros, it is just so very obvious that no matter how pleasant it looks, this is not where you want to be if you want to advance.  And, reading stuff on other BB's about "training level trap" (people who never escape training level) it is clear to see that these people are IN it.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Going through this exercise, making note of the horses and comparing the final scores to what I observed was a very valuable experience, and I *hope* I am able to use it in practice.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#One other observation - even if you are just doing schooling shows, try to ride for at least some National type judges (no offense to Chisholm!!) to be sure you are getting good feedback.  I have gotten out to quite a few shows now - schooling, trillium, and now national - and the only judge who really disliked our ride was also the only "r" judge.  If this was the only show I had gone to, I would be pretty confused and disappointed, when in fact, the S/B judges say I have lots of work to do, but am generally on the right track.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[royall]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I assume OP stands somehow for Topic starter?#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I am perfectly capable of appreciating talented movement. As I mentioned this observation pertains only to lower level Dressage showing as at upper levels and I would say from 3 to 4 four up the average mover just will not succeed.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#If in the lower level talent and #ed_op#STRONG#ed_cl#obvious#ed_op#/STRONG#ed_cl# less homework is always rewarded before #ed_op#STRONG#ed_cl#obvious#ed_op#/STRONG#ed_cl# hard work and dedication how much incentive is there for beginners, lower priced horses (and not everybody can afford the extravagant mover) and the bulk of Dressage show people?#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Tabby]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Royall, I feel your pain.  I am also way too financially challenged to ever own or even lease a fancy horse and am religated to competing my rather plain OTTB in a world of WBs.  The truth is, when my long-necked, long-backed guy goes above the bit - it's ugly.  When he stutters at a transition, his long legs are everywhere - there's no subtlety or grace there.  It's hard to blame any judge for knocking the marks down - no matter how many nice moments we have.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Where I try to get my motivation from is that I'm doing everything I can to be correct so that I can move forward up the levels.  My TB may not be fancy, but he will (someday) be able to do nice lengthenings and collection work, not to mention lateral stuff.  No matter how talented and flashy a horse may be, somebody has to train them and ride them in the test.  My goals are to get out of the training level rut and compete against the real riders.  I'll still be losing to more talented horses, but at least I'll know that it was deserved.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I did once compete on a lovely, fancy moving mare that scored incredibly high despite a rather lousy (IMO) ride, so I can see that there are occassional issues with judging.  The 2 things that bug me the most are (1) false frames and (2) impure, despite flashy, gaits getting scored well (this mare had both).  It does happen, but I wish it wouldn't.  I hope that the more experience the judge has, the less likely this will happen.  And if I do ever get beyond 1st level, maybe I'll ride more frequently for the experienced judges - hopefully.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Judy F]

Dedication, hard work, and decent conformation and paces can take you
all the way!  It's happened before and it will happen again. 
Remember Keen?  TB all the way to the Olympics and he medalled!#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
BUT -- yes, I've seen it:  Schooling and Trillium, lower levels,
getting 60-70% on flashy moves.  Then a shock at their first
national -- a mark in the 50's and comments like:  "Horse
overbent", "Poll low",  "Horse needs to move more forwards!" 
"Lateral walk" " Disunited/late behind at canter" --  I score a
LOT of shows and see ALL the tests (can't read them all of
course).  One of the most interesting comments I encountered was:
"Please, please STOP riding this lovely horse from front to
back.!"  Cranking its head into a frame did not fool this
international FEI judge one bit!#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
And yes, judges do tend to be more lenient at schooling and Trillium
shows -- even though they're not supposed to be.  They do try to
be consistent but your marks are likely to be lower as you go up the
grade from Primary to Trillium to National.  Also, the standards
get higher as you go up the levels and you have to be rounder and more
consistent as you go.#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
In the end, consistency, accuracy and hard work CAN win out.  #ed_op#br#ed_cl#

[pony crazy]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Royall and Tabby...I too know the pain of not having a big fancy horse.But I made due with my arab.It wasn't all about the scores more the fun of competing.My sister and I showed the same horse(at different times and different levels)but the mare came to be one of two arabs I believe that competed at Prix St.Georges.So you just have to work with what you can afford.If you only compete to win there isn't much point in it.I'm not saying that you do.It bothers me when I don't get the scores I should for a great ride,but like I said if I only rode to win I would have quit 20 years ago and I'm 26 now.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Elatu]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#JudyF: If I went to a National Show being judged by the same judge as a Trillium Show, I would expect the same marks. Perhaps this is the underlying problem to the discouragement to some riders, who have hopes and aspirations,(because they have received high marks in the Trillium competitions), they feel they can go into the "big ring" and kick butt and take names. They instead leave with their tails between their legs.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Judging should be even right across the board, no matter which "class" of show you attend.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Judges should also be able to substantiate their marks, and not be afraid to praise the movements worthy of the treasured "9's" and "10's" if a movement warrants it.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Judy F]

I agree with you Elatu, they SHOULD use the same standards.  But it's a double-edged problem.#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
If you only got 50% all the time at schooling, would you got
Trillium?  Would you even continue dressage?  Maybe switching
to jumper?  I know some judges who mark wayyyyy high -- getting a
60% from them is tantamount to failure.  They use 6 as a minimum
mark, using 5's & 4's for obvious problems.  They seldom
resort to 3's, let alone 2's or 0's (not performed).  Minor use of
voice may be overlooked.#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
#ed_op#br#ed_cl#

[Kobau]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#hmm interesting thread. I of course have never shown in Ont, so don't know what the judging is like there. But i have shown out in BC, AB, and MB... and Did very well. On a TB, that thought he was a WB, but still he was a 16 hh black tb, yes he had some gorgeous paces, but he made me earn those points because i had to truly truly ride him. The judges realised that, and saw that we were consistent, bang on with transitions etc.. Plus the easy to see joy of the horse did help, he loved to get in the ring and work.. We won championships because we worked our tails off..#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Now here in MB i never showed that horse, I lost him to a broken leg when i moved out here. But i now have a 16.2 hh Trakenher, and while he is lacking in ability in some areas, which will continue to improve with work. He has a pressence in the ring, once again, he loves to show and he makes me earn my points.. I can say he will almost always place higher than some of my other horses, such as my Morgans, because of talent, movemt, size... that is the way it is.. I have 2 tb's, one is 10 the other is 20, both have good movement, the older one blows away most people with his ability and his gaits, the younger one has very good gaits which are improving, and i expect to honestly be placed behind flashier movers...#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#But just me, The scores only tell part of the story. I look at them, i read the comments, and then i compare to how it felt, how it looks on video..I don't really care about the placing as long as i'm getting real feedback and can feel improvement..(i'm sure all that was somehow off topic but oh well)#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Tabby]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Question - are there rankings for judges in Canada the way they have in the states (e.g. l and r judges).  If so, does anybody know what those letters mean and what order they are in?  I know it has to do with the judge's experience.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#One would think that a more experienced or qualified judge would be more consistent and in line with other judges (assuming they have to take courses and clinics etc.).  I would also expect national level shows to employ higher ranked judges than trillium and primary/schooling would be the beginner judges (this is a generalization - I have seen some top judges at a primary show before).  One reason for moving up from one level to the next might be access to more experienced judges.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Ideally, the scores should be similar no matter who is judging and what level the show is, but realistically, this is not likely to happen.  Judges are human and even if 2 have had identical training, they will see some things differently.  However, the more experience they have, the better they should be able to distinguish between good movemnt and one that is faked (i.e. false frame or flashy but 4-beat canter).  Therefore, the scores should be more consistent between 2 highly experienced judges than 2 novice judges (who may miss some of the subtleties).  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Of course, I'm not a judge and don't really know.  This is just my impression.  I do agree that handing out too many low scores at schooling shows is just going to discourage new riders to the sport.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#