Anky commiting horse abuse?

[xena_n_joss]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Found this on the COTH chat... There were apparently articles ect claiming that Anky and Sjef abused their horses.. That Rollkur is horse abused ect... I think its absurd... but oh well.. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Whats everyone elses opinion?#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#A href="http://chronicleforums.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/5986094911/m/847203707"#ed_cl#http://chronicleforums.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/5986094911/m/847203707#ed_op#/A#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[babytigger]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#hmm...couldn't read all 10 pages of it - my eyes hurt too much.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#anyways - no opinion right now - there is too much of "they said & she said" kinda stuff from what i can see.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Adi]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I would find it really hard to believe. While abusing her horses, how could she have such amazing harmony, submission and lack of general tension in her animals? Seems kind of out there to me!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Caballo]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#methinks it's just some jealous little people trying to bring a hero down...but I probably will never know for sure.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Terry3025]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Oh boy!  This topic has been discussed hundreds of times!  It has to be the number one topic on #ed_op#A href="http://www.ultimatedressage.com"#ed_cl#www.ultimatedressage.com#ed_op#/A#ed_cl# as there are so many people that agree to this method and others who claim that it's abuse.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#In any sport or way of life, you can train any way that you please.  I personally do not think that it's abuse as the horses seem happy and not in pain and are almost always at the top of every class.  However, I think it is *wrong* when people on the sidelines watching Anky and the many other top riders ride rolkur try it at home.  This is because what they see is the rider keeping the horses head at its chest...but in reality and Sjef and Anky have said time and time before, you're not just using your hands.  You have to have the hind end stepping underneath the horse.  If you don't have the hind end then you have the false frame and have lost any forward motion.  They have also mentioned from a Dressage Today magazine a few years ago, that they do not ride in this position for long periods of time.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Anyways, I always try to have a open mind about new techniques.  People will always argue and discuss issues like this.  I've read discussions about trainers/riders not using long and low because they thought it produced tension or whatever you please.  This is the same with side reins.  Those who know how to use them properly can get great results, but others who think they know everything about it, end up doing more harm than good.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I think that Anky is a great horsewoman and has truly lucked out on having the talented horses and just all that natural talent that we all wish we had!  But I have to admit, I am getting a little tired of seeing their name in first place all the time.  It would be nice to see a different person up there!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[xena_n_joss]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#meh it was news to me that there was even a lawsuit over it... #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I like the way she trains and she could train xena ANY day! But yes, I agree, I think people are just trying to stir up crap about her because she is winning so much. And now one of her students is right behind her. Obviously she is just very talented... #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#and... you dont ride with your hands anyways... The true connection is only true and felt when you are "riding" the horse in a frame with your seat and barely touching its mouth. Rollkur (what a stupid name) or deep work as many call it is used by tons and tons of dressage trainers around the world. Even Carl Hester does. And hes english so obviously its not just the dutch people. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#It always baffles me how sensitive horses can be to the slightest movement of your seat eh? It also always baffles me how I actually do it.. (the times I get co-ordinated enough haha)#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Judy F]

From what I read, Anky sued the German magazine St. Georgs over the
gratuinous use of her photograph to illustrate an article (which did
not mention her in particular) about Dutch riders supposingly abusing
their horses.  She won the suit, but the discussion continues.#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
IMO, a lot of people can't tell when a horse is "poll-low" as opposed to being a cresty stallion with good self carraige.#ed_op#br#ed_cl#

[Chisholm]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Let's not continue this thread, for it's going no where, we know it's not true.  Way too many rumours get started this way about abuse cases.  We know in Dressage it's impossible for a rider like Anky to get to the top without true training basics.  This is a sport of Harmony between horse and rider!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Easter]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Can someone please tell me what rollkur is and why it is supposedly abusive? From I gather, is it riding with a really deep headset? #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[xena_n_joss]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#why not continue it? Its news? Something I hadn't heard about until now, I like hearing whats going on and get all the information about it... . If its not something that interests you, dont read the post or reply...  I do not mean that in a rude or mean way at all... The way to prevent rumours about whats going on is to talk about it and get facts from people who do know whats going on.. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Easter, #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#basically the St.George magazine is trying to prove that rollkur is damaging to the horses muscle structure ect, that it is only a way of forcing the horse into doing what they want without properly getting relaxation. And yes, rollkur is basically only riding the horse into a deep frame without letting the horse get long and on the forehand. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Theyre trying to get a ban on riding like that or riding with training instruments. Even going as far as trying to get it so that the warm up of horse and rider is judged or supervised as well. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[LucasL]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Leaving Anky out of it, I think that the warm up of all shows (not just dressage) should be looked at. A couple of years ago I attended a Morgan breed show. One fellow schooled his horse relentlessly between classes - head cranked in with draw reins and spurs drawing blood. He finished first or second in every class that I saw him ride in (at least four or five).#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I personally wonder why he wasn't asked to leave the showground???#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Judy F]

FYI, at trillium and national dressage shows, the warm-up ring IS
supervised by a steward or assistant steward.  Any horse abuse
will be punished by elimination from the show.  #ed_op#br#ed_cl#
There are very specific rules in the Equine Canada rule books against
abuse and, in dressage, what is permitted in the warm-up ring in way of
extra equipment.  For instance, standing martingales will get you
disqualified on the spot, even in the w-u!  #ed_op#br#ed_cl#

[xena_n_joss]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#They should be looking at other breeds or shows too... #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I remember being at an arabian championship show and seeing this one man trooting the hell out of his horse up and down the side of the arena, yelling at it and literally running he horse into the wall at either end, over and over again... interesting to know how some arabs achieve that high stepping country english pleasure pace eh?#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#This was while the ring was packed wth other competitors too. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[AWSgurl]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#yes this is a very touchy subject..........some people believe in it others don't I have gone on several links explaining and showing pictures of the rollkur with #ed_op#FONT size=2#ed_cl#Sjef Janssen #ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl# it quite how do I say " dramatic" but since this has all come out in the news it seems all the links have been removed from the internet which I find very interesting, if it wasn't considered abuse why have they been removed????............makes you go hmmmmmm#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[xena_n_joss]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I think they have proble been removed if they are up there by anyone other than anky or sjef because of legal issues... I have read Sjef pushed legal action saying some of the articles were inappropriately saying bad things about anky and it was illegal.....#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Ruth]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Personally I don't like rollkur, but obviously it works for some people, used correctly. Anky is a world class trainer and I am not.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#However in my own personal experience, I know one person who used it and ruined her horse.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#We also have a horse at the barn where Boomer is that is from Anky's and he has serious back problems. So much so that they thought he would have to be euthanized at one point.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Guelph believes that it is from being asked to use his back at too young an age.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#So for me it isn't a method I'm interested in using. But is it abuse? I don't know.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Remember, people like Anky are in an entirely different world than us on this board.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#