confused about headset for dressage ring...

[Flyin' High]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#ok, so im a hunter/jumper who has english/western training under my belt, i've had dressage coaches in the past, but it was more of just using dressage to supple my horse rather than actually training for dressage shows... so im not sure of the answer to my question.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#in most dressage tests i've watched, the horse's headset is rounded, but set higher than the hunter headset which tends to be long and low with the neck still slightly tucked in, and i've CERTAINITYL never watched a dressage test performed with the horse's head as low as a westen pleasure horse's head (almost between his legs)#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#but the other day while i was riding a stud for the lady i train for, she told me "you have to let him put his head way down, he's dressage and not hunter/jumper like you're used to, so he goes long and low".. ok so long and  low i can handle no problem, but his head was between his legs!!!! i was riding him and thinking i should throw a western saddle on him and throw him in a western pleasure class because we'd place for sure with his head this low!!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#so my question i guess is, is this type of headset normal in the dressage ring and im just completley oblivious to the type of headsets dressage judges are looking for, or IS the head between the legs way too low of a headset in this discipline??#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[pony crazy]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#that is not the normal headset for dressage.dressage riders(me being one)do like to school our horses long and low to strengthen the back so the horse can carry itself and use it's hind end.of course i do not know if this lady competes like that,if she does she would get comments like poll too low or way below verticle.there is only one movement in some of the tests that wants the horse long and low.but certainly not the whole test.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Patricia]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Riding long and low is done in the warm-up to let them stretch and develop muscle/strength.  Then we gradually take up the contact.  In the lower levels we ride in a longer frame but NOT on the forehand.  It takes years to teach a horse collection for the upper levels.  We strive to teach self-carriage and it is never called a 'headset'.  The reins don't hold them in place your have to ride them from behind into the contact.  A horse tanking along long and low on the forehand is not dressage.  You have to teach them to use the hindquarters to sit and be light in front.    Maybe watch this person ride...I am sure and some point she takes up the contact.  The training test start easy and gradually move up to more collection and lateral work.  If dressage is this new to you it is best to have a coach that specializes in the discipline.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[chenders01]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#FH, a GOOD dressage judge does not care about "headset".  A *good* dressage judge wants to see forward movement, flowing gaits, submission...they don't care where the horse's head is.  I mean, they don't want to see a horse with its head up like a giraffe, as that usually means that the back is hollow and the horse is on its forehand, but a good judge won't require that the horse's head be cranked into its chest either. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#A lot of dressage riders school "long and low" because it gets the horse using its back and stretching down onto the contact.  In some of the dressage tests, they want to see this nice stretching motion, so a walk on the buckle across the centre line, or a long and low 20m trot circle is incorporated.  The judge wants to see the horse stretching down onto the contact at the walk and trot.  But you aren't supposed to *keep* them there!  You are to gather your reins back up and ride the horse on a normal (not death-grip) contact.  If the horse is using itself correctly, it will put its head where it is most comfortable...and you don't want to mess with that because then, you are creating a false "head-set" which is never good.  The whole idea of dressage is freedom and lightness and you can't achieve that if you are forcing your horse to travel a certain way.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Some horses naturally carry their heads higher and some carry them lower...it all depends on the horse's conformation and how their built.  A good dressage judge would want to see the horse carrying it's head at a "neutral" position, bent at the poll but not cranked into the chest (as a lot of dressage riders like to ride).  They are supposed to be more concerned that the horse is pushing itself forward from its hind end, versus pulling itself along with its front end.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Not sure if that answers your question and sorry if I went on a bit of a rant there.  Can you tell that I dearly hate the term "head-set" (in *any* discipline)?? #ed_op#IMG onmouseover="this.style.backgroundColor='#C6D3EF';this.style.border='1px solid #3169C6'; " style="BORDER-RIGHT: #3169c6 1px solid; BORDER-TOP: #3169c6 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #3169c6 1px solid; CURSOR: pointer; BORDER-BOTTOM: #3169c6 1px solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #c6d3ef" onclick="InsertImage('/richedit/smileys/cheeky.gif');" onmouseout="this.style.backgroundColor=''; this.style.border=''" src="http://forums.equestrianconnection.com/richedit/smileys/cheeky.gif" align=absMiddle#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Judy F]

I agree with Chenders.  Not sure what that lady was trying to do,
but 'long 'n low' is only an exercise in dressage, not a
head-set.  If anything, dressage works on a "body-set" -- light in
front, hind end curling under, head just a little in front of vertical
(behind in VERY BAD).  At training level, the horse should be
essentially level with the neck elevated and nose at little in front,
no collection, just moving forwards with a smooth rhythm, responsive to
the riders aids.  As you go up the levels, the forehand gets more
elevated as the horse develops the muscles to carry itself from behind.#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
The highest marks at the higher levels go to horses that can carry
themselves from behind, going from collected to extended paces and back
again (apparently) effortlessly, without significantly changing their
outline.  But it's not a head-set, it's all in working from behind
on those really well-developed muscles.#ed_op#br#ed_cl#

[Flyin' High]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#ok guys, so maby "headset" was the wrong word to use, but its one that everyone knows what im talking about!! hehe when im working with my horse, we dont talk about if he's got the right headset, we atlk about wether he's connected with me or not (working on a connection with me to reach from behind)#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#i understand that the horse needs to be working from behind in ANY discipline, and thats what weirded me out, this horse WAS stretching out nicely! it was as if he can collect himself and work well from the behind, all the while having his nose almost on the ground (i was at the buckle)... it felt lik ei was on a western pleasure horse that actually works from behind instead of on the forehand...#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[chenders01]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Sounds like that horse's owner has taken the concept of "long and low" to the extreme.  Even in a dressage class, when you're doing your free-walk across the centre line or your 20m stretchy trot circle, most riders don't go alllll the way down to the buckle.  They'll lengthen their reins but they still have a small amount of contact.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I'd be really worried about that horse tripping over his nose, with it so close to the ground!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#