adult amateur

[frog]

Hi all,  I'm new to the scene and just was wondering how the adult
amateur status works.  My belief is that you can't be teaching,
training, boarding etc. to qualify.  I know of people competing as
adult amateurs who do all.  Isn't this cheating. I'd appreciate
comments. Thanks.

[graciespook]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Please refer to section A (General Regs) of the Equine Canada Rulebook. Article A902.  You may not receive renumeration for Training, Teaching, Riding, Showing or for Sponsorship. Any sponsorships must be approved by EC. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[frog]

I know someone going to Ontario Championships as an adult amateur who
does all.  What would you do if you knew this.  I'm not a
competitor so it doesn't affect me but what about other who are?  

[Ruth]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Personally I would report the person. You can teach other disciplines than dressage and still show AA dressage (ie if the person teaches Western Pleasure they are still an amateur as far as dressage shows go), but if they are accepting remuneration for teaching or training dressage then action needs to be taken. It doesn't matter if they teach one person or are a BNT, the rules are there for a reason. I know I've occasionally had people ask me to teach them and have turned them down so I could retain my AA status in good faith and it really pisses me off when other alleged AA's teach and then use the excuse "Well I only teach one person," or "It's not like I'm Jessica Costello" or whatever. I could use the extra cash too, but the rules are the rules.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I ran into this issue this summer, and brought it to the attention of the stewards who did what they could - which was confront the person who of course vehemently denied it - so nothing came of it. They told me I would have to make a formal complaint, I don't know if they meant to the show organizers or to EC, but because I was acting on information given to me by someone else I wasn't willing to go that far. If I had seen the accused coaching with my own eyes I absolutely would have made the formal complaint. I feel pretty strongly about this. AA status is on the honor system and some people are not honorable.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[graciespook]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#You can file a complaint against the competitor. There is also information on this in the Rulebook.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#To file a complaint you must be an EC sport license holder in the division in which the question arises. The complaint must be sent to the PSO where the alleged violations occured within three months of the competition date. A complaint may be made in regards to violation of the rules, common principles of behaviour, fairness, diagreement on the interpretation of the rules. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Only complaints which are in regards to national competitions should be sent directly to the PSO and EC. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#The problem with lodging a complaint against another competitor who is not really an amateur is that there is ways around it. For instance, the competitor may come back insisting the pay was for barn chores, and the coaching was done as a learning experience. Unless it specifically mentions in their contract that they were riding/teaching, etc, its very hard to proove. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Arial color=#292526 size=1#ed_cl##ed_op#P align=left#ed_cl# #ed_op#/P#ed_cl##ed_op#P align=left#ed_cl# #ed_op#/P#ed_cl##ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[graciespook]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Personally I would report the person. You can teach other disciplines than dressage and still show AA dressage (ie if the person teaches Western Pleasure they are still an amateur as far as dressage shows go), but if they are accepting remuneration for teaching or training dressage then action needs to be taken.

#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Basically you are considered a professional and not an amateur if you are receiving any renumeration for the services rendered.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#

#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#It doesn't matter if they teach one person or are a BNT, the rules are there for a reason. I know I've occasionally had people ask me to teach them and have turned them down so I could retain my AA status in good faith and it really pisses me off when other alleged AA's teach and then use the excuse "Well I only teach one person," or "It's not like I'm Jessica Costello" or whatever. I could use the extra cash too, but the rules are the rules.

#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Wouldn't it be nice if all the competitors followed the rules? I too get mad at this double standard. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#

#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I ran into this issue this summer, and brought it to the attention of the stewards who did what they could - which was confront the person who of course vehemently denied it - so nothing came of it. They told me I would have to make a formal complaint, I don't know if they meant to the show organizers or to EC, but because I was acting on information given to me by someone else I wasn' willing to go that far. If I had seen the accused coaching with my own eyes I absolutely would have made the formal complaint. I feel pretty strongly about this. AA status is on the honor system and some people are not honorable.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#The stewards are good for help. If there's something they can't answer, they call our department at EC. They are usually fair, responsible individuals and hold everything together at the shows. We are in need of more stewards. Some of our best stewards in the area (and out in Alberta) are getting older, and we need to replenish the system. These people stewarding now are very experienced, a wonderful asset to the system and they are wonderful mentors for learner and recorded stewards who shadow with them. I'm considering becoming a steward myself, as I now have an extensive knowledge of the rulebook and a desire to keep the playing field fair. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Ruth]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Yes, the steward at the ring in which this violation occured was very helpful. Like I said they did what they could.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Judy F]

Nothing gets competitors more heated than someone taking advantage of a
system.  We have one local rider who doesn't teach (anymore) but
does train her own horses and sell them.  Showing them at
schooling and Trillium dressage is part of their training (of course)
but she shows as AA, not Open.  Technically, she's in the clear
but it does generate a lot of comment.

[Adpaga]

from the EC membership rules, #ed_op#br#ed_cl#b) An EC amateur may not accept remuneration for coaching any person to ride or #ed_op#br#ed_cl#drive a horse, including riding or driving clinics and seminars. #ed_op#br#ed_cl# c) An EC #ed_op#br#ed_cl#amateur may not train or show a horse, or instruct a rider or driver, when remuneration #ed_op#br#ed_cl#for this activity will be given to a corporation or farm which he or she, or his or her family, owns or controls. #ed_op#br#ed_cl# d) An EC amateur may not act as an #ed_op#br#ed_cl#agent nor accept commissions for the sale, purchase and/or lease of a horse. #ed_op#br#ed_cl# 3. Persons who have #ed_op#br#ed_cl#not engaged in any of the activities in Article A902.2 during the preceding two #ed_op#br#ed_cl#(2) calendar years may request reinstatement as amateur competitors. Such requests #ed_op#br#ed_cl#must be sent in writing to EC.#ed_op#br#ed_cl# 1. For the purposes of these rules, remuneration is defined as any payment #ed_op#br#ed_cl#in cash or kind excepting gifts of token value. #ed_op#br#ed_cl##ed_op#br#ed_cl#Judy, Frog, we have on of those "Adult Amateur" in our area as well.#ed_op#br#ed_cl#Runs a small boarding/breeding/sales stable, has a#ed_op#br#ed_cl#couple of students, trains the odd horse while the owner can't ride and#ed_op#br#ed_cl#gets use of equipment or remuneration in exchange. But when I commented#ed_op#br#ed_cl#to (#ed_op#span style="font-style: italic;"#ed_cl#this person's#ed_op#/span#ed_cl#) coach on the show grounds after (#ed_op#span style="font-style: italic;"#ed_cl#this person#ed_op#/span#ed_cl#) had presented a person#ed_op#br#ed_cl#hanging out with #ed_op#span style="font-style: italic;"#ed_cl#them #ed_op#/span#ed_cl#as one of #ed_op#span style="font-style: italic;"#ed_cl#their #ed_op#/span#ed_cl#students while #ed_op#span style="font-style: italic;"#ed_cl#they #ed_op#/span#ed_cl#was showing AA,#ed_op#br#ed_cl#(#ed_op#span style="font-style: italic;"#ed_cl#the coach#ed_op#/span#ed_cl#) said #ed_op#span style="font-style: italic;"#ed_cl#they #ed_op#/span#ed_cl#was "showing off" and could barely be considered as a#ed_op#br#ed_cl#coach...#ed_op#br#ed_cl#The only benefit for (#ed_op#span style="font-style: italic;"#ed_cl#this person#ed_op#/span#ed_cl#) is that #ed_op#span style="font-style: italic;"#ed_cl#they #ed_op#/span#ed_cl#gets rubbans in classes #ed_op#span style="font-style: italic;"#ed_cl#they #ed_op#/span#ed_cl##ed_op#br#ed_cl#wouldn't place as an Open. The PB in our area, is that it discredits#ed_op#br#ed_cl#the dressage riders and doesn't help the development of a "healthy#ed_op#br#ed_cl#dressage community". Everybody knows  (#ed_op#span style="font-style: italic;"#ed_cl#this person#ed_op#/span#ed_cl#), as far as I know I am the#ed_op#br#ed_cl#only one who commented to #ed_op#span style="font-style: italic;"#ed_cl#their #ed_op#/span#ed_cl#coach, and nobody respects  (#ed_op#span style="font-style: italic;"#ed_cl#this person#ed_op#/span#ed_cl#). Which is#ed_op#br#ed_cl#to bad as #ed_op#span style="font-style: italic;"#ed_cl#they #ed_op#/span#ed_cl#are one of the few involved in the promotion of dressage#ed_op#br#ed_cl#in our area. But hey, what wouldn't you do to chase rubbans......#ed_op#br#ed_cl#Maybe Equine Canada should look into the complaints filed a bit more...#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
#ed_op#span style="font-style: italic; color: rgb(128, 0, 0);"#ed_cl#(note -
anything in italics were edits made by EC in order to help ensure that
the identity of the person used in this anecdote is protected)#ed_op#/span#ed_cl##ed_op#br#ed_cl#

[zooka]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I know of some decent names that are hiding as adult amateurs when they shouldn't.   But they do it because to them they can get better marks and make the horses look better to sell!  It is ashame that people think that way instead of just playing fair!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[graciespook]

#ed_op#BR#ed_cl#Maybe Equine Canada should look into the complaints filed a bit more...#ed_op#BR#ed_cl#

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#All complaints filed are looked into, but we can't be out at every show. I'm actually surprised at the small amount of complaints received.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[zooka]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#maybe there are not a lot of complaints because people are affraid of filing them against others, since the competetive horse world in Canada is not that big and rumours can spread rapidly.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Judy F]

Adpaga, there is a difference between an EC 'amateur' as defined in
General Regs and a Dressage 'Adult Amateur.'  They are not the
same, and some people who would qualify as an EC amateur do not qualify
as a dressage AA.  #ed_op#br#ed_cl#
#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
A rider not eligible for the AA category is anyone who:#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
    - within the current and previous 2 years has
accepted remuneration (whether paid to an individual or
corporation/farm))) for training a horse and/or coaching any person to
ride a horse (including clinics and seminars) in the #ed_op#span style="font-weight: bold;"#ed_cl#dressage discipline only#ed_op#/span#ed_cl#;#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
    - holds a curent EC English coaching certification/license at level 2 (#ed_op#span style="font-weight: bold;"#ed_cl#dressage #ed_op#/span#ed_cl#option) or levels 3-5 Dressage;#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
    - is a current EC B, M or S/FEI #ed_op#span style="font-weight: bold;"#ed_cl#dressage#ed_op#/span#ed_cl# judge or his/her equivalent in other national federations;#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
    -is a current or former CET short/long listed rider or current or former CET dressage team member;#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
    -anyone who has represented Canada internationally (eg, World Cup final, Can Am Challenge, etc...)#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
The rules about this category do not mention eligibility to hold an EC
Amateur Status card.  Perhaps they should?  Shall we propose
such to Dressage Canada as they gather to consider possible rule
changes next month?#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
#ed_op#br#ed_cl#

[graciespook]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#The requirements for an EC Amateur Card can be seen in Section A of the General Regs. In the case that there is nothing mentioned in the Discipline section of the rulebook (in this case dressage) the General Regs prevail. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Adpaga]

It would seem fair that the rules of Equine Canada prevail, as EC is
the base organisation from which Dressage Canada and other
organisations developp. #ed_op#br#ed_cl#
I agree with Judy that the rules committee should add it to the list of areas to be reviewed.#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
Does Dressage Canada forward the complaints/requests to Equine Canada? #ed_op#br#ed_cl#

[frog]

I see everyone seems to agree that cheaters damage the sport.  I'm
not going to the championships but would like to lodge a complaint,
what should I do?

[Fritz]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I think it's an excellent suggestion to take to DC our request that the rules be clarified.  Certainly, the area is very gray and their intent (in terms of definition of AA) should be defined in simpler language.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I think it's interesting that Dressage Stewarts that I have asked seem to believe that Dressage Rules (regarding AA's) prevail over EC rules - and Graciespook you seem to believe the opposite.  So, who is right?  Which rules prevail?#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Adi]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#How about juniors accepting renumeration?#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Adi]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Just a  few thoughts for those of you who are suspicious of these AA's. Have any of you seen money being exchanged? How do you really know that these people are accepting renumeration? Maybe they are helping out, sharing their knowledge? I have on occasion with AA status helped people out of the kindness of my heart, not because I was going to get something out of it. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Don't get me wrong, you all have legitimate concerns, but I feel that people are way too quick to jump to conclusions about what people are or aren't doing.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[zooka]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#How about juniors accepting renumeration?#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#My opinion on that is that juniors are still young and learning.  They are not likely to be teaching that much and most riders would prefer someone older who has more experience.  JMHO#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I must say I have not seen a junior coach to any real level#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#