adult amateur

[graciespook]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I encourage anyone who wants clarification on the rules to contact DC or EC. I worded that wrong btw--discipline rules take precedence over the general regs. But when there are no provisisions made in the discipline rules, general regs are what you should look to. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[frog]

From what I know the person I am speaking of helps no one out of the
kindness of their heart.  They hide they money by taking
trailering or having lesson payments made to accounts at tack
shops.  I believe this is the same this right?

[Razzba]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#If it smells, looks, feels like cheating, then its cheating.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Unfortunately, it does nothing to promote our sport.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#In fact, it does the opposite because no one wants to be #ed_op#STRONG#ed_cl#knowingly#ed_op#/STRONG#ed_cl# associated with a cheater. That is why it is so important for people to come forward about this issue. The cheaters need to be identified.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Good luck, frog! You will be doing the right thing.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Ruth]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Just a  few thoughts for those of you who are suspicious of these AA's. Have any of you seen money being exchanged? How do you really know that these people are accepting renumeration? Maybe they are helping out, sharing their knowledge? I have on occasion with AA status helped people out of the kindness of my heart, not because I was going to get something out of it. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Don't get me wrong, you all have legitimate concerns, but I feel that people are way too quick to jump to conclusions about what people are or aren't doing.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Adi, that is exactly why I did not file a formal complaint - I have never seen it myself, it was a friend who had, and I did not feel I wanted to make a formal complaint based on something someone told me. I do, however, strongly believe that the information is correct, and do not, by any stretch of the imagination, think that the person I suspect was helping the others with purely altruistic motives. This person was not just helping with schooling at a show. I always give people the benefit of the doubt for the reason you mention, and do not go running off assuming the worst because I saw someone helping another rider.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[pawsnhooves]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Hello all,#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I'm new here, but I am compelled to add my 2 cents to this discussion about cheaters.  I don't show, but I do have wonderful friends who do.  I too know of a woman who is misrepresenting her amateur status while brazenly parading her students and horses in training in front of a very small equestrian community here at home.  I have nothing to gain or lose by reporting this person.  I am definitely on the outside looking in but I am so bothered by a cheater in any area of life that I am feeling more and more compelled to lodge a complaint.  I watch and support the riders who have the talent and determination to show.  I am furious when I see this person, who by the way is not much more talented than I, cheat and win ribbons while others are accepting their placements and following the rules.  It seems, sadly, that this is a problem in this sport as it is in so many others.  I love to watch all of you who compete, and I think that we should all be outraged by people who misrepresent themselves. If you happen to be one of those people who has done this, whether inadvertently or knowingly, please search your soul and realize that any gains that you receive by cheating aren't really legitimate.  Have the courage to compete where you know you should be competing...give the true amateurs a chance to improve their positions. Compete against your rightful competition.  It truly is the only way to improve.  Remember, it is not always other competitors you have to concern yourself with, those EC members who are watching are aware of who you are and what you are doing.  We too are apalled.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[halt at X]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I have a question... how do you determine if someone is training/coaching a horse/rider in the "dressage discipline" only? I have quite a few students (I show in the open division) and they all ride school horses and work diligently on learning basic dressage. But if they were hunter riders, I would probably be teaching them the exact same exercises for their "flatwork". They would just consider themselves to be hunter riders rather than dressage riders. At training level, dressage is not all that unique and just because the horses aren't actually jumping over anything, that doesn't make them dressage horses, nor does it make their riders dressage riders. At what level does real dressage begin?#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#And besides... I've seen a lot of riders who would profess that they are riding the dressage discipline, however I cringe when I see them as it looks about as far away from real dressage as the moon!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Just because someone calls it dressage, doesn't mean that it is dressage. And just because someone calls it "hunter flatwork" doesn't mean that it doesn't have the same basic principles as dressage. So, if I were to consider that my students were hunter riders working on flatwork, could I justify showing in the AA division? (Not that I want to. I'm just playing devil's advocate). #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I think there's much more to this grey area than just the renumeration!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Fritz]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#As this conversation goes on, I noticed an add in the Equimarket section of this site advertising "#ed_op#STRONG#ed_cl#Dressage Training/Riding#ed_op#/STRONG#ed_cl#" by a person who showed #ed_op#STRONG#ed_cl#Training Level#ed_op#/STRONG#ed_cl# #ed_op#STRONG#ed_cl#Amateur#ed_op#/STRONG#ed_cl# at the Toronto Classic show in August and #ed_op#STRONG#ed_cl#First Level Amateur #ed_op#/STRONG#ed_cl#at the schooling show at RCRA at the end of July.  It took 30 seconds to look up the results when I recognized the name as a fellow competitor.  Shame.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#What does that tell you?  I guess it means that on Sept 1/05 they decided to be a trainer and will now show Open #ed_op#IMG src="/richedit/smileys/cool.gif"#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[graciespook]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#As this conversation goes on, I noticed an add in the Equimarket section of this site advertising "#ed_op#STRONG#ed_cl#Dressage Training/Riding#ed_op#/STRONG#ed_cl#" by a person who showed #ed_op#STRONG#ed_cl#Training Level#ed_op#/STRONG#ed_cl# #ed_op#STRONG#ed_cl#Amateur#ed_op#/STRONG#ed_cl# at the Toronto Classic show in August and #ed_op#STRONG#ed_cl#First Level Amateur #ed_op#/STRONG#ed_cl#at the schooling show at RCRA at the end of July.  It took 30 seconds to look up the results when I recognized the name as a fellow competitor.  Shame.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#What does that tell you?  I guess it means that on Sept 1/05 they decided to be a trainer and will now show Open #ed_op#IMG src="/richedit/smileys/cool.gif"#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#There's a form of proof for you!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Ruth]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Halt at X - I don't know what the official stance would be, but personally I wouldn't really consider coaching at that very basic level to be dressage as such. Perhaps once they are being taught to bring the horse into a frame? Or when the riders themselves decide if they are h/j or dressage? But some of these so-called AA's have students that show dressage at Primary, Trillium and even National.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Adpaga]

this area of grey is cleared if you apply the Equine Canada criteria
for Adult Amateur status, which doesn't permit any playing around
discipline #ed_op#span class="postbody"#ed_cl# #ed_op#span style="font-weight: bold;"#ed_cl#notice that there is no distinction of riding discipline#ed_op#/span#ed_cl##ed_op#/span#ed_cl#:#ed_op#br#ed_cl##ed_op#br#ed_cl##ed_op#span class="postbody"#ed_cl#b) An EC amateur may not accept remuneration for coaching any person to#ed_op#span style="font-weight: bold;"#ed_cl# ride#ed_op#/span#ed_cl# or #ed_op#span style="font-weight: bold;"#ed_cl#drive#ed_op#/span#ed_cl# a horse, including riding or driving clinics and seminars. #ed_op#span style="font-weight: bold;"#ed_cl##ed_op#/span#ed_cl##ed_op#br#ed_cl# c) An EC amateur may not #ed_op#span style="font-weight: bold;"#ed_cl#train or show #ed_op#/span#ed_cl#a horse, or #ed_op#span style="font-weight: bold;"#ed_cl#instruct a rider or driver#ed_op#/span#ed_cl#, when remuneration for this activity will be given to a #ed_op#span style="font-weight: bold;"#ed_cl#corporation or farm which he or she, or his or her family, owns or controls#ed_op#/span#ed_cl#.#ed_op#span style="font-weight: bold;"#ed_cl##ed_op#/span#ed_cl##ed_op#br#ed_cl# d) An EC amateur may not act as an agent nor accept commissions for the #ed_op#span style="font-weight: bold;"#ed_cl#sale, purchase and/or lease of a horse#ed_op#/span#ed_cl#. #ed_op#br#ed_cl##ed_op#br#ed_cl#understanding that remuneration is any payment made in money or kind for the service rendered.#ed_op#/span#ed_cl##ed_op#span class="postbody"#ed_cl##ed_op#span style="font-weight: bold;"#ed_cl##ed_op#/span#ed_cl##ed_op#/span#ed_cl##ed_op#br#ed_cl##ed_op#span class="postbody"#ed_cl##ed_op#br#ed_cl#I might repeat myself, but it would be constructive to have the EC rule#ed_op#br#ed_cl#prevail over the more specific rules of separate branches, especially#ed_op#br#ed_cl#as national and trillium shows are gouverned by EC rules and#ed_op#br#ed_cl#regulations.#ed_op#/span#ed_cl##ed_op#br#ed_cl#

[Judy F]

#ed_op#span class="postbody"#ed_cl##ed_op#span class="postbody"#ed_cl#I might repeat myself, but it would be constructive to have the EC rule#ed_op#br#ed_cl#prevail over the more specific rules of separate branches, especially#ed_op#br#ed_cl#as national and trillium shows are gouverned by EC rules and#ed_op#br#ed_cl#regulations.#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
I agree, the EC definition should prevail.  Perhaps the
wording:  "qualified as an amateur under ED Gen. Reg. ## and...."#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
should be inserted.#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
As for juniors accepting remuneration for teaching/coaching, they still
qualify as juniors and can ride Open if they chose.  They cannot
compete as AA (good thing too, they often have the highest scores...#ed_op#img src="/richedit/smileys/cool.gif"#ed_cl##ed_op#br#ed_cl#
#ed_op#/span#ed_cl##ed_op#/span#ed_cl#

[Trinity_25]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#As this conversation goes on, I noticed an add in the Equimarket section of this site advertising "#ed_op#STRONG#ed_cl#Dressage Training/Riding#ed_op#/STRONG#ed_cl#" by a person who showed #ed_op#STRONG#ed_cl#Training Level#ed_op#/STRONG#ed_cl# #ed_op#STRONG#ed_cl#Amateur#ed_op#/STRONG#ed_cl# at the Toronto Classic show in August and #ed_op#STRONG#ed_cl#First Level Amateur #ed_op#/STRONG#ed_cl#at the schooling show at RCRA at the end of July.  It took 30 seconds to look up the results when I recognized the name as a fellow competitor.  Shame.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#What does that tell you?  I guess it means that on Sept 1/05 they decided to be a trainer and will now show Open #ed_op#IMG src="/richedit/smileys/cool.gif"#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#There's a form of proof for you!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Just to play Devil's Advocate here ...#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Is that a form of proof?   Just because someone has advertised doesn't mean anyone has been willing to hire or pay them....#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#The rule discusses recieving renumeration but does not address soliciting for renumeration (successfully OR unsuccessfully)#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Granted, I'm in a pot-stirring mood but I've never been much bothered by 'shamatuers' in my classes.  The ones I've seen or suspected have not really 'stood out' to me if you know what I mean.    #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[graciespook]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Yes but do they list renumeration or simply to ride your horses for you? If she publicly posts that she is receiving renumeration that can be tricky, but more solid than 'I know that she teaches' or the typical he says she says scenario.  The other situation is was she advertising this after she has been an amateur or during? #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Trinity_25]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Hey ... I still don't think when the person was advertising matters... the rule talks about renumeration (aka you got something for it)#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I can advertise myself for teaching dressage lessons for $100/hr if I want.  If no one hires me ( ahhaaahahaahh very likely at THAT price) where is the rule violation?#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[pawsnhooves]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#The person I know is advertising herself as a coach/trainer, is receiving remuneration boarding, training and coaching, and continues to show adult amateur.  Whether she is impressive or not is not the issue, there are rules in this sport that others follow.  If you want to play the game, you better know the rules.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Adpaga]

#ed_op#div#ed_cl# #ed_op#/div#ed_cl##ed_op#div#ed_cl# I've never been much
bothered by 'shamatuers' in my classes.  The ones I've seen or
suspected have not really 'stood out' to me if you know what I
mean.    #ed_op#/div#ed_cl#

#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
that is exactly what happened this WE, and as I am sharing your mood, I
am not ashamed to say that it made my day! especially that this person
would have placed better with the same scores if she'd shown open where
the classes were small! hahaha there is a justice somewhere #ed_op#img src="richedit/smileys//smiley15.gif"#ed_cl#

[Trinity_25]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#The person I know is advertising herself as a coach/trainer, is receiving remuneration boarding, training and coaching, and continues to show adult amateur.  Whether she is impressive or not is not the issue, there are rules in this sport that others follow.  If you want to play the game, you better know the rules.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I hear what you are saying.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#However, after a season of watch violations of such basic rules as use of certified course designers at jumper shows, jump heights far exceeding the class spec, horse show management accepting unreasonable amounts of entries + plus continuing jumping competition in unsafe lighting, unmonitored warmup areas with juniors jumping in near dark, dressage judging in accordance to personal preference instead of the rules ...#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Let's just say 'shamateurs' are not real high on my radar ... its karma.  Smart horsepeople look at someone that stupid +unethical+obvious+arrogant and wonder what else s/he thinks s/he is getting away with.  It always catches up with them at the end.  Ethical pros who believe in their ability are proud to compete in the open divisions.  Competing in the Amateurs when selling oneself as a pro is not very good self-promotion. (ie "Work with me and you too will be just one in the crowd.")#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#That's why I don't worry about it much.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Razzba]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I think we all believe what you are saying T, but many people just starting out in horses get sucked in with these people and then get totally turned off of the sport when they realize that their coach/trainer is indeed a "shamateur".#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#To make our sport more appealling to people at the "grass roots" level we need to identify the "shamateurs" and "scamateurs" in our sport, AND promote the Professionals more. Is it any wonder we flounder as a nation, at international events??#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Ruth]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Well, I know the person I'm talking about certainly isn't a great rider - I watched a test and decided that the student (also there showing) might want to rethink the choice of coaches!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Trinity_25]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Oh I hear you ...I just wonder if we need to go a different direction with the amateur vs. professional thing.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#To really stir the pot:#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I think:#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#- we should all be categorized as amateurs and have to earn our way into the Open or Pro divisions.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#- Open and/or Pro divisions should be promoted as something to aspire to below FEI#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#- that the DC amatuer rule is actually a better rule than the EC rule.  To qualify as a non-amateur one must have horses or students competing in dressage to a certain recorded competitive level.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#- that teaching a few up down lessons or exercising someone's horse for a few bucks should not determine you as a professional.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I know this may be unpopular, but I truly believe the distinguishing feature between the amateurs and the pros needs to be more than just a the acceptance of a cheque.  A doctor is more than just someone who takes money to hold a scalpel and cut.  Why should a dressage (or any other riding discipline) professional be defined so cheaply.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Sorry ... to veer off course but I've disliked the current state of the EC amateur rules for a long time.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#