adult amateur

[Adpaga]

#ed_op#div#ed_cl#To really stir the pot:#ed_op#/div#ed_cl##ed_op#div#ed_cl# #ed_op#/div#ed_cl##ed_op#div#ed_cl#I think:#ed_op#/div#ed_cl##ed_op#div#ed_cl#- we should all be categorized as amateurs and have to earn our way into the Open or Pro divisions.  #ed_op#/div#ed_cl##ed_op#div#ed_cl#- Open and/or Pro divisions should be promoted as something to aspire to below FEI#ed_op#/div#ed_cl##ed_op#div#ed_cl#-
"..."To qualify as a non-amateur one must have horses or students
competing in dressage to a certain recorded competitive level.#ed_op#/div#ed_cl##ed_op#div#ed_cl#-
that teaching a few up down lessons or exercising someone's horse for a
few bucks should not determine you as a professional.  #ed_op#/div#ed_cl##ed_op#div#ed_cl# #ed_op#/div#ed_cl#

#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
Trinity, you've just made a good point. Which would clear up the fog around the adult amateur status.#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
Why not suggest then:#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
-  that anyone who has scores qualifying him/her for the Dressage
Canada Awards should move up to Open division as soon as the fourth
qualifying score is obtaines. This is easy to track down, and the
amateur can decide whether they get up a level as AA or stay in the
same level with the Open for the end of the year. #ed_op#br#ed_cl#
- that anyone who presents students and/or horses owned by a third
party (private person, corporation or association) at trillium or
recognised shows should ride in the Open division.#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
This seems quite fair, and giving access to the Open status based on
results achieved will make it an incentive to reach, also keeping
coaches who are strong enough to present students and/or horses at
shows in a same division will prevent sour feelings and perhaps
wrongfull advertisement (e.g. talented dressage prospect, successfully
shown, blablablabla, while they competed in trillium as AA).#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
Thanks for the suggestions, I hope others will approve it to.#ed_op#br#ed_cl#

[Trinity_25]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Did someone actually LIKE my heathen ideas?#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Seriously though, I think if we did re-organize the system somewhat along these lines it would simplify & clarify  the situation.  Instead of focusing on who IS an amateur perhaps we should treat ALL as amateurs until proven otherwise. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Adpaga,#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I quite like some of your ideas for delineating the move to Open status.  The limitation on the number of 'amatuer' scores of a certain mark before mandatory qualification for Open is an interesting and fair one. It also makes the information easy to access for the informed consumer.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I'm not so sure about the third-party ownership part.  This turns AA into an Amateur-Owner division which I haven't seen working out especially well in the hunter world.  It also acts as a barrier to those entering the sport on 'school horses' or those leasing/part-boarding.  I understand where you are coming from but wonder about some of the implications. (not that I have a better idea at the moment, but I'll think about that one)#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Adpaga]

Good point Trinity!#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
 I guess it all comes down to make the access to Open an incentive based on Results before reaching the FEI levels.#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
 If we can keep the money/remuneration part out of the selection
of who can ride amateur and who is open, it will probably
developp/promote the sportsmanship of our beautiful discipline.#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
What would you guys opinion be on having to go open if reaching following thresholds (spelling?):#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
- training: 4 scores at 65% or higher#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
- first level: 4 scores at 64% or higher#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
- second: 4 scores at 63% or higher#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
- third: 4 scores at 62% or higher#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
- and fourth: 4 scores at 61% or higher#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
If show results (trillium or national) select AA or Open, it doesn't
matter  who owns the horse you are riding and if you're making
money from training horses and/or students, or if you are a student
paying a coach to ride his/her school horse at a show. #ed_op#br#ed_cl#
#ed_op#br#ed_cl#

[Trinity_25]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#It wouldn't bother me at all.  I loved it in eventing that I competed against the pros (albeit on their young or green horses)  The idea that on given day, if I am good and lucky that I can still win while having the honor of sharing the field with a (current or former)  member of the Team.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I competed in the pre-green hunters as a teen against professionals.  Its never bothered me.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I do believe that the scores should be the differentiator, this still leaves a place for the less-experienced rider/more limited horse.  Perhaps even include a rule that after 4 consecutive scores below the 60% mark that the Open horse/rider combo must compete AA or drop down a level to compete Open?  Make competing Open an honor and a privilege, not a burden.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#  Eventers must submit scores and competitive records before moving up to Training level and beyond, it should be workable.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Here's what I don't want to see happen.  Two 'unofficial' sets of judging criteria; one for AA and one for Open. Know what I mean???  There's too much pooling of the scores at the 6 mark as it is.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Razzba]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Rather than reinvent the wheel, why not look at what other (more successful) countries are doing? Maybe not so much in Europe, but to the USA? We use their tests and standards anyway. And many people compete there as well.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Trinity_25]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Why?  Because the general USEF amatuer rule is the same as the EC General definition and I hear the same complaints and arguments about it ALL the time on COTH.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I don't believe we are looking at this the right way in NA at all and wonder if it is the symptom of a bigger problem in the equestrian disciplines.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Amateur is the protected status, the 'special' status; people are going to go to great lengths to keep amatuer status. I've heard more sympathy for someone having to compete Open than admiration.  For all the protection of amateur status, we cheapen the definition of a Professional.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Thank about it, ANYONE can be a professional (stupid, incompetent, totally ass-backwards wrong ... doesn't matter as long as you've taken money)  but you've gotta jump some hoops to be an amateur???  Anyone ever here watch the movie "Head of State" with Chris Rock?  The final speech about amatuers is great, it about defining an amatuer as someone who hasn't got the experience but could well have the talent and shows how dismissively the term 'amateur' can (and sometimes should) be used.  Yet somehow we've glorified it...#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#And we wonder why the profession commonly isn't taken seriously as a business but as an 'activity' for the idle rich or for dabblers? #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Razzba]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#OK, maybe look to the Europeans then. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#They seem to have it worked out a little better.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I just like the fact that the US has the breed classes (in dressage) so if you are really fond of say - Paints, you can rank/rate yourself against other Paint dressage riders as well as other breeds. This maybe  a better avenue for more "real" amateurs who love to ride but don't have the $$ to buy a big fancy warmblood. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Let's face it, in this sport, the more money you have, the more chance of success you will have. (for the most part)#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Adpaga]

A few years ago I used to compete  in France. There were junior
and senior classes, and you were required to move up a level afer
achieving a certain number of scores above set marks in the same year.
Like Equine Canada, the French Federation Equestre records all the show
results, and they have developped a computerized show entry database
where you enter any show you want, but classes depending on the data of
your previous show record.#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
I know it will sound awfully controlling for Canada, but this seemed
like a good way to keep the competition healthy and sharp, while not
discouraging the amateur (from latin "amat" meaning "who enjoys", and
by no means a second class rider) who will show once or twice in the
season for the pleasure of it. On the other hand, the eager competitors
had to play against each other and move on once they start cleaning up
to much.#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
Also, nobody was ashamed to compete against known ridders who were
starting their young prospects (we called them the Formula One horses)
in the same classes. The classes were usually quite bigger then here,
and ribbons and prizes were only given out to the riders placing in the
first 1/3 of the class (which often was up to 12 riders placing). In
smaller classes the same rule applied, so sometimes there was only one
ribbon, and if you were the only or two entries, you'd place according
to your score (so no red ribbon for a win against yourself + 1 other,
if scoring under 60%). #ed_op#br#ed_cl#
Maybe we're not ready for something that elaborated, and we don't have
the pool of riders neither, but something along those lines could be an
idea....#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
#ed_op#br#ed_cl#

[*rickie*]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I've heard more sympathy for someone having to compete Open than admiration.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma color=#c080ff size=4#ed_cl#Really?? I tend to think of it the other way around. When you show AA, you are up against all the people who have a tone of money to buy that perfect horse that is trained to a higher level than the rider riding the horse. And even though that person can't ride as well as you can, they beat you, for the simple reason that the horse does it. #ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma color=#c080ff size=4#ed_cl##ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma color=#c080ff size=4#ed_cl#I know this doesn't happen in all cases, but I have been up against that sort of thing many times, and I discourages me, as I know that I have a good horse (lets say a grade horse), and that I can ride well, but that because I have trained my horse myself, and my horse is only trained the level that I am riding it, I stand no chance of placing higher than the warmblood that is trained to the tilt but ridden by someone who isn't as nice a rider.#ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma color=#c080ff size=4#ed_cl##ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma color=#c080ff size=4#ed_cl#We've all seen it, and for this exact matter, I took myself out of the AA division and put myself in the Open division. I would much rather ride against people who rides at my level, and who also have a horse that is at the same level as my horse. That just makes the competition better!#ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma color=#c080ff size=4#ed_cl##ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma color=#c080ff size=4#ed_cl#Although if there had been a standard that after so many tests with such and such a score, you are forced to ride Open, that might make the competition better, and I wouldn't have wanted to put myself in open unless I was coaching. #ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma color=#c080ff size=4#ed_cl##ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma color=#c080ff size=4#ed_cl#Adpaga, I like your thoughts on if you have received X number of scores at a certain level that you much show Open, however, I think that the peole who are calssified as AA, shouldn't be forced to ride there; that they should have the option to ride Open is they so desire.#ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma color=#c080ff size=4#ed_cl##ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma color=#c080ff size=4#ed_cl#Now that being said, would you place the same restraints and rules on the Juniors, forcing them to move up to AA??#ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[zooka]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I think this is a hard area to say what should be done to make people be at certain levels.  I think it may work better to say after you get X amount of scores at a certain level you move up to the next level.  That way you are not switching divisions but still moving up and competing against others that should be at the same level.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Not sure that makes sense...#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#If you are first level AA and get X amount of a certain score then you must move up to second level AA.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#What are thoughts on that?#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Razzba]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#The system you describe in France, Adpaga, (I believe that Germany has a similar system) sounds more equitable than what we currently have here. Maybe it is time that the governing bodies have a look at these systems and come up with something similar that would meet the needs of Canadians and our geographical challenges.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Trinity_25]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Hmmm ... personally I prefer the switch divisions idea to a forced move up.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Although a rider/horse combo may be successful at a certain level, there may be good reasons why they shouldn't move up yet.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#- rider well-prepared for current level but not yet ready/confident at the next#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#- horse still need work to be truly ready to move up#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#- horse not physically capable of the demands of moving up#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Forced upwards moves have some real risks, a forced lateral but more challenging move provides a good safety valve (in my mind) or at least choices for the rider.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[zooka]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#but that is just it then you work on those moves... so it may not be pretty the first while but the idea is eventually they will come.  I think if a horse can consistently get say 70's at one level it is on its way for the next.  There is not a huge jump up from one level to the next I find.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[zooka]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Or if the horse and rider are really not wanting to move up have a seperate division for them that is more fun competing then actually placing and stuff.  This gives other riders the chance to do well at the levels they are at without having someone who consistently has high marks to worry about.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Trinity_25]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I don't know about that. The jump from 1st to 2nd is pretty big. The rest of the transitions between levels are ok but that seems to be the big one.  I can see that one getting people in trouble and resulting in alot of 'crank him in and call it collection'#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Remember the rule idea is the option to either move laterally to open OR move up a level in AA.  I still believe the option is necessary.  Some horses are just more limited and can't do the next level up comfortably OR correctly.  We can't leave them behind.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[xena_n_joss]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#rules are rules, anyone who feels they can compete should be able to compete at what level they feel they can. If they are any good and actually know what theyre doing then great, they do well. If someone is going to be over facing themselves and lose why should others have to suffer through restraints?#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#IE: say someone buys a horse and the horse is doing great, so they say ok, im going take the horse and show this level. Why should they have to spend years just qualifying to get to that level?#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I honestly do not know of many adults who buy "made" horse and do well just sitting on the horse. I know this is a problem sometimes for lower levels of junior riders. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Also, most people who do well showing dressage, on any horse, train their horse at least a level above what they will be showing, it is not uncommon. Plus rider scores are minimal to what you get for the horses scores and, sorry, to make a horse perform a movement well you do have to ask it properly. If they werent asking properly then the horse would be doing something else if it was that well trained. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#You have to understand the scoring, and if you look at the test, you will notice almost everything is scored on the horse. So why complain, if your horse does it properly then youll get the score. If it does, then you wont. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Even if someone has a trained horse, they still have to work just as hard to be able to give the "trained" horse the correct signals. A dressage horse does not just automatically do a perfect passage or leg yeild without the rider giving it the aid.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Ruth]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Adpaga and Trinity I suggested something like this on another thread. I am in full agreement with the principle, but I'm sure the nuts and bolts will have to be worked out.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#rickie I actually do think that an AA rider #ed_op#STRONG#ed_cl#should#ed_op#/STRONG#ed_cl# be forced to either go Open or move up a level once they get the scores. I'm pretty sick of the people (and there are more than one) who compete AA and #ed_op#STRONG#ed_cl#consistently#ed_op#/STRONG#ed_cl# score 70's yet don't MOVE ALONG. A lot of people "self-regulate", but there are quite a few who don't.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I have no problem with competing against people who coach at a low level - even the one I complained about, I'm only so bothered because the rules are the rules and I'm obeying them by not coaching- and I could coach. Or someone who sells a horse from time to time, I really don't see how that makes someone a professional if you take the money out of the equation. I have a friend who doesn't ride much, yet does sell a horse or two a year, she would not be too capable of riding Open, yet if the EC (as opposed to the specific dressage rules)prevailed she would have to.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Trinity_25]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Xena_n_joss...#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I don't think anyone has mentioned how far upward a person could enter ... only to restrict the division in which they could do so.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#If someone wants to make their dressage debut at 3rd level ... go ahead and enter AA.  If one is consistently getting the DC qualifying scores past a certain number of them then they 'qualify' for Open 3rd or moving up to AA 4th.  If one is not making the scores then one could theoretically stay in the AA division forever, or move downward to 2nd level AA or 1st until the DC qualifying scores are reached and then the choice again would be lateral to Open or upward to the next level.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I see alot of flexibility in this.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[xena_n_joss]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#ahh, i thought you meant in order to move up at all you had to score a certain amount, like start training and have to get say 70% to moved up to first. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Trinity_25]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#lol ... NO WAY!!!!  Do you think I want to have to compete against imported powerhouses just because they don't have a 'canadian' record???? (like some of the so-called 'pre-green' hunters?)#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Move on up baby ... or compete against the pros on equivalent uber-movers.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#