a higher head carriage ~~ UPDATE ANOTHER Q~~

[xena_n_joss]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#So the main gist of that Belinda Trussell clinic I went to was to get Xena's head up higher and sit her back more. Which I have been practicing. Not the way that she suggested, but I found a good system that works without having to fight with Xena for our whole ride. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#So now she is starting to go alot better. I first thought I would one ride her doing this for say a half an hour, with long and low walk breaks every few minutes. So she doesnt get tired. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#But I have found that in the beginning she still pulls her head around alot (sometimes more than others, sometimes she will be good and others she flips her head around alot), but after literally half an hour, she finally gives in and holds her head perfect and light. Like she really starts going nice. Should I continue riding until she does this? It doesnt last long because by then both her and I are getting too tired. And se still needs to develope the right muscle to continuallly hold herself like that. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#When she starts going quiet I do make sure I let her know shes doing good. If she didnt fight the bit so much she would be really good (and if I could control her really well lol). Shes kind of "explosive" I guess you would call it.  But shes not really a bad horse persay. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Maybe I should take her for a short run before working to get some of the beans out of her? I might try putting her flash noseband back on also. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[*rickie*]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma color=#c080ff size=4#ed_cl#xena, if it's taking you a 1/2 hour to get her all warmed up, and then after that you are just plain too tired......(been there done that MANY times) I would say lounge her with side reins on for 10-15 minutes, and then get on. #ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma color=#c080ff size=4#ed_cl##ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma color=#c080ff size=4#ed_cl#I know that sounds like a HUGE PITA, but it will be so much nicer for you when you get on her. It'll be better for you and her in the long run.#ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma color=#c080ff size=4#ed_cl##ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma color=#c080ff size=4#ed_cl#I had to do it with my arab for a while (couple months actually) and as much as I hated having to lounge all the time, it just made my life easier, as I could ride the *good* all the time, instead of having to spend my time warming up and *wasting* all my energy getting to the *good* and then being too tired to enjoy it!#ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma color=#c080ff size=4#ed_cl##ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma color=#c080ff size=4#ed_cl#Hope this helps, it really helped me....and I'm still doing it right now with Blue!#ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[chenders01]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Xena, are you asking her to carry her head in a certain position right from the beginning??  If it's an unnatural headset for her, then it makes sense that she's going to fight it.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Dali was sooooo sensitive that if I took too much of a contact on his mouth at the beginning, he'd flip and toss his head around.  He *hated* excessive contact!  What I used to do with him was to just trot him around on a loose, hunter-type contact for the first 10-15 minutes...big circles and lots of change of direction.  He needed that time to warm up his back and start carrying himself properly and get into "work" mode.  You could really tell with him, when he was warmed up, as his trot went from being like riding a pogo stick, to smooth and rhythmic (seriously, you could set a metronome to his trot).  And once he was warmed up, his back would lift up underneath me, he'd track up and his head would drop into position.  Those times were really wonderful with him!  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I'm not sure why Belinda Trussell told you to get Xena's head up??  Was she dragging it on the ground??  Honestly, what's going to work best is for Xena to put her head where she wants it rather than trying to force her to carry it a certain way.  I hate it when clinicians/trainers advocate a "headset", and any good dressage judge is going to prefer to see the horse going forward in a calm and rhymical way, versus caring about where its head is positioned.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#As far as a flash, I really don't like them.  I think that if you have to force your horse's mouth shut, that's a riding problem and not something that a piece of hardware is going to fix for the long-term (ie. you have to ride the horse in such a way that it doesn't resist by opening its mouth).  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#    #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[xena_n_joss]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Chenders: I always warm her up well with long and low... And I use long and low throughout the ride so give her a break. IE: I will ride her round and higher for a few minutes and do transitions and then I will walk and trot with long and low. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I dont lunge her with side reins ever, If I lunge her I lunge without anything and then use the Chambon for her. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Her one fault is being lazy behind and the reason Belinda told me to have her head higher was to have her head up and sit back to get her to use herself more, which did actually imrove her hind movement. And shorten her body and neck more. Her problem was that she was too long and hunterish. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[*rickie*]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I dont lunge her with side reins ever, If I lunge her I lunge without anything and then use the Chambon for her. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#

#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma color=#c080ff size=4#ed_cl#Then I would suggest lunging her in the Chambon, before you ride her, it will make a HUGE difference, plus it should only last about a month or 2 before you can go back to riding the warm-up.#ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Patricia]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Well nobody like a peanut roller in dressage.  I think what Belinda was wanting you to do was not ride with her head 'high' but not allower her to go any lower.  To compress her frame and not have her strung out like a hunter.  There comes a time in training where they MUST develop self carriage.  If your horse is a TB there is nothing wrong with riding a few good canters early in the warm up and then go back to trot work.  Once the initial 5-10 minutes of long and low are over and you take up the contact....she should respect it and you MUST ride her forward into a soft contact.  She must learn to move from behind....doing this for longer periods of time each day teaches self carriage and develops the muscles to carry themselves.  I am with Rickie....longe does serve a purpose with a horse like yours.  I had one like that and when we started our dressage journey...he was well fed and full of energy...I would lunge for the first 2 - 3 months....take the nervous edge off and get him to relax.  It made for such a nice ride and you could accomplish something.  Eventually with regular training sessions I would gradually phase out lungeing altogether.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I don't use a chambon....Although I have longed with draw reins in case your horse is the type to hollow and run.  I could fasten them so I had some inside flexion...something he tried to avoid.  It was a great tool in the beginning.  Ride a bending line and do transitions sometimes every few strides....every half circle...here and there...loops etc.  Keep her on her toes...Don't go round n round....she sounds like she is smart and would get easily bored.  When you get tired this is the time to dig deep and ride through it...those will be your best rides!  Keep at it!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[xena_n_joss]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#ya... she is almost too smart... hehe... I taught her really nice shoulder ins and she did it near perfect the first time. Now she will do the whenever I ask. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I think part of her problem is that she is the alpha mare. She has been everywhere she has been. She is pretty bossy anyways. One minute she will be chasing one of her field buddies and putting the boots to them and the next she will be standing there with them. I wish I knew what she was thinking sometimes. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I will try lounging before. I will use the chambon.. She doesnt hollow out and take off so draw reins wouldnt serve much purpose. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Maybe your right though, maybe shes just getting bored?#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Patricia]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Draw reins can keep them from hollowing.  You can fasten them so many different way.  From girth through bit rings and tie at the wither.  Lunge them loose like this then fasten to top stirrup leather to get inside bend.  If you have a horse like mine that runs hollow head in the air....Loop on bit rings run through from legs and tie at withers...they work against their own body and he developed long and low himself.  I only do it for 10 minutes each side...Although the run loose without them tied in place to allow them to stretch and have a good run.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Definitely lunge her regularly....you may find you have a better, longer ride and are able to work through more to develop self-carriage.  Remember a good shoulder-in can only come after good suppling/round work in contact.  Then allowing them to stetched out when lateral work is done.  Our horse automatically goes in a frame on the contact immediately.  It is what he knows.  It is our routine.  We do take lots of stretch breaks though.  He is taught to carry himself.  No fight....the fight is in the beginning teach what was is expected of him.  In his case long and low means fall on your head...LOL!  He tends to stumble a lot so it is safer to ride in a soft contact.  We go on a long rein at walk.  Stick to a regular routine and she will gradually catch on.  My warm up rarely changes....and I ride a TB...so sometimes in winter I do warm-up in canter more before we do extensive trot work.  It actually limbers him up more and takes the edge off.  Then we get a more relaxed horse with better rythmn faster.  We sometimes have short rides because everything goes well and we practice everything with little to no resistence.  1/2 hour of intensive work and walk/cool out and put him back outside with his friends where he is happiest.  Routine--they thrive on it!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Patricia]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Draw reins can keep them from hollowing.  You can fasten them so many different way.  From girth through bit rings and tie at the wither.  Lunge them loose like this then fasten to top stirrup leather to get inside bend.  If you have a horse like mine that runs hollow head in the air....Loop on bit rings run through from legs and tie at withers...they work against their own body and he developed long and low himself.  I only do it for 10 minutes each side...Although the run loose without them tied in place to allow them to stretch and have a good run.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Definitely lunge her regularly....you may find you have a better, longer ride and are able to work through more to develop self-carriage.  Remember a good shoulder-in can only come after good suppling/round work in contact.  Then allowing them to stetched out when lateral work is done.  Our horse automatically goes in a frame on the contact immediately.  It is what he knows.  It is our routine.  We do take lots of stretch breaks though.  He is taught to carry himself.  No fight....the fight is in the beginning teach what was is expected of him.  In his case long and low means fall on your head...LOL!  He tends to stumble a lot so it is safer to ride in a soft contact.  We go on a long rein at walk.  Stick to a regular routine and she will gradually catch on.  My warm up rarely changes....and I ride a TB...so sometimes in winter I do warm-up in canter more before we do extensive trot work.  It actually limbers him up more and takes the edge off.  Then we get a more relaxed horse with better rythmn faster.  We sometimes have short rides because everything goes well and we practice everything with little to no resistence.  1/2 hour of intensive work and walk/cool out and put him back outside with his friends where he is happiest.  Routine--they thrive on it!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Patricia]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Draw reins can keep them from hollowing.  You can fasten them so many different way.  From girth through bit rings and tie at the wither.  Lunge them loose like this then fasten to top stirrup leather to get inside bend.  If you have a horse like mine that runs hollow head in the air....Loop on bit rings run through from legs and tie at withers...they work against their own body and he developed long and low himself.  I only do it for 10 minutes each side...Although the run loose without them tied in place to allow them to stretch and have a good run.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Definitely lunge her regularly....you may find you have a better, longer ride and are able to work through more to develop self-carriage.  Remember a good shoulder-in can only come after good suppling/round work in contact.  Then allowing them to stetched out when lateral work is done.  Our horse automatically goes in a frame on the contact immediately.  It is what he knows.  It is our routine.  We do take lots of stretch breaks though.  He is taught to carry himself.  No fight....the fight is in the beginning teach what was is expected of him.  In his case long and low means fall on your head...LOL!  He tends to stumble a lot so it is safer to ride in a soft contact.  We go on a long rein at walk.  Stick to a regular routine and she will gradually catch on.  My warm up rarely changes....and I ride a TB...so sometimes in winter I do warm-up in canter more before we do extensive trot work.  It actually limbers him up more and takes the edge off.  Then we get a more relaxed horse with better rythmn faster.  We sometimes have short rides because everything goes well and we practice everything with little to no resistence.  1/2 hour of intensive work and walk/cool out and put him back outside with his friends where he is happiest.  Routine--they thrive on it!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[xena_n_joss]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Oh dont worry I know what draw reins are, and for some horses they work great, For xena they just arnt necessary. Neither are side reins. She doesnt throw her head up and hollow out. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I did try lunging her before I rode last night and that seemed to help. She actually bucked a couple times on the lunge line. Then when I rode her she was more relaxed. So thats what ill do. I used to lunge her before I rode right after her accident and then I stopped. I think she will always be the kind of horse who needs to be lunged. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#At least lunging her I got to see how nice she is, shes actually grown into her big head and her head looks smaller now.. She looks huge though lol. And she is actually using her hind more now. Before she was kind of lazy and didnt use it, she didnt track up in the trot at all. Now she is much better and tracking up well and pushing more. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I notice my sitting trot is improving too. All those weeks bouncing around and now I can sit it really good. But she isn't as bouncy when she goes properly anyways, much more smooth and swingy.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Ruth]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#If she isn't as bouncy anymore that means you are getting somewhere, she is starting to work over her back. Congratulations! Lungeing is good, so is cantering as part of your warm-up. Cantering is a jumping pace and can loosen a horse up faster than trot will. When she fusses with her head ride her up to the bit with your leg. You are good to take lots of breaks, and not to overdo it when she does give.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[xena_n_joss]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT color=#bf005f size=4#ed_cl#Thanks Ruth! I have let her canter on the lunge before riding her the last couple of nights. I noticed after this she really starts dropping her quarters down and is pushing alot more. She is starting to improve alot and get back into shape. Shes even starting to lighten up alot when im riding her, so I think the cantering on the lunge was the best move. She gets to run around and toss her head all she wants that way haha.#ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT color=#bf005f size=4#ed_cl##ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT color=#bf005f size=4#ed_cl#I tried to get my mom to take some pictures last night of her but my mom is mechanically retarded, and could not get my camera working... So there goes that idea haha. #ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[AWSgurl]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I agree with Patrica, I find that if I lunge before I have such a better ride and not so much resistant, I find it warms them up and gets them to stretch more through their back, I always lunge with sidereins also...........and I also agree with Belinda that more horses need to come from behind you see several horses in the ring that are over bent and not engaged from behind........I was told that the poll has to be the highest part, not even or below the withers, good luck and keep up the good work. I am in the same situation by the time I am done riding I am dead tired too........LOL#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[xena_n_joss]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#well the last couple nights I barely even had to work to get her going to its a piece of cake. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I never said I didnt agree with getting the horse to come from behind, that is an obvious must to be succesful in dressage. What I DID not agree with in the belinda trussel clinic was forcing the horse into it like she had me do. But thats another post... And I dont want to get into it again.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[*rickie*]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#well the last couple nights I barely even had to work to get her going to its a piece of cake.

#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma color=#c080ff size=4#ed_cl#So does this mean that you are able to ride her longer, with longer moments of *what you want*???#ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma color=#c080ff size=4#ed_cl##ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma color=#c080ff size=4#ed_cl#I hope so. I know how you feel Xena, I'm at this point with Blue (well obviously not doing the stuff you are doing....but you know), and when I don't have the energy to lunge before riding, I don't even ride. It's just not worth it!#ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[xena_n_joss]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#ya, thats what I mean rickie... lol... I dont necessarily ride her longer yet though. I ride her the same amount of time but with much less fighting. I do get the odd head toss and pull every once in awhile but its not such a big deal.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Shes getting a killer free walk now too. As soon as I drop the reins in walk she automatically goes into a nice cool, free walk.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[xena_n_joss]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Ok so ive been lunging her since I made this post. It worked for the first few days.... But I dont think I was riding her for long enough or something? #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#But its still taking a good 45 minutes for her to actually give and become loose. And for her to accept the contact. She doesnt do anything on the lunge though, She just drops her head and goes. I lunge her for awhile too... Ater I fight with her for the first 45 minutes she goes really nice and actually listens. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Maybe I can rig the side reins up somehow at a higher place. I cant attach them to the girth like normal because it would defete the purpose and work Ive been doing for the past month... #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Like seriously, anyone else had this much problem with a horse, does anyone here ride a big young warmblood type horse? Im not talking about tbs or arabs or anything. They are soooo much easier to ride. I have really really good hands so I know im not catching her mouth. Are wb types usually this hot? Ive only even ridden tbs and arabs and stuff. Ive ridden a few wbs before but not on a regular enough basis to form an opinion like that.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I thought she was doing it because she was developing different musscle from being ridden different, but now its just taking her forever nd then she goes. She I dont think shes tired or anything. And once she goes nice I can literally think something and she will do it. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I just wish I didnt have to fight at all with her to do it. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[graciespook]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#You'll have to bear with me, I've skipped most of the replies...#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Is she giving at all??? Will she even give for a step or two? Its a lot to ask, which I'm sure you know, and from the warmbloods I've ridden, they can be bigger, stronger and stubborn. It may be a learning curve problem and you have to remember to give your aids correctly and let her fight against herself. Once she knows how to give properly, she'll see its a reward. My old mare was the same way. You'd spend 40 minutes almost screaming, holding and asking and trying everything, and then, 'boom'. She'd just give. But it was persistence. I had a killer dressage coach who made me school the exercises and just keep asking correctly, give if she does, even if it was only one step. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I forget things...do you work with a coach? The clinic didn't go so well for you if I remember. Maybe look around for another clinician?#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Patricia]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Well it could be a number of things.  Firstly, you stated you used a chambon...could that be why her head is staying down.  Try side reins...fasten them low on the girth.  Maybe she has dental problems and is not happy with the bit.  It sounds like she doesn't have a good work ethic yet.  You keep using the word fight....re-evaluate yourself...it should NOT be a fight.  Methodically work her....keep you reins steady--no give and take....she must learn to accept contact..push her into it...these lessons are hard (for the horse) but once learned you can move on.  WB are like that...some are lazy, some are hot....I hear often some trainers call them dumbloods....#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#How long do you lunge...?  She should be supple and ready for work after 10 minutes in each direction.  These types are built to work--maybe you are not working her hard enough?#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#