Leg OFF

[horsecrazy333]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Ok#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#So I'm working on getting out of my hunter leg on all the time toes out to more of a dressage leg where it's more off the thigh and seat with calf off.  So first off let me tell you I feel like a retard I'm all over the place and my thighs ACHE!!!!!  I know what I'm supposed to be doing, but does anyone have any exercises I can do on and off the horse to a) find that 'right spot'  and b) build up some kind of strength that I appear to be lacking as I've ridden off my calves my whole life.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I completely understand the rational and all I'm just having a hard time getting used to it.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Chisholm]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Well first off just to make sure here, that your toe comes in not out in Dressage.  And all you really need to do to change the leg postion is open up you knee and ride in a slightly longer stirrup.  Also depends on the saddle.  Some saddle don't help when it comes to changing postion.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#But it does take time.  And yes it will feel weird the first couple of times.  And don't expect your leg to change over night, it's a gradual process.  Are you working with a Dressage coach now?#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I came from the hunter world with toes that pointed out, legs clamped to the horse and bum in the air.  Now you see me years later and you would never know I rode hunter, how did I ever put my leg in that position.  I can't do it at all now.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[graciespook]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#A good hunter does not ride with toes out and leg clamped. At least I never have and my hunter rider friends never ever have. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Have you tried riding without stirrups for awhile? It will work wonders, as well as lengthening the stirrup as chisholm suggested. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Patricia]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Well if you rode in an all purpose and are making the move to a dressage saddle....drop your stirrups a few holes....I find like the above poster mentioned is riding without stirrups and letting your leg fall out at hip and relax and follow the movement of your horse.  I usually do a nice warm up and get the horse all nice and forward/supple.  After some canter work....cross your stirrups and walk keeping legs in position as though stirrups are there.  Do lots of transitions from walk to trot and back all around the arena.  If your feeling confident and sitting well even canter and do transitions to trot.  I remember in the old days in my lesson program we did that every lesson....Progress was made without even noticing...Keep at it!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[*rickie*]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma color=#c080ff size=4#ed_cl#I agree with all of the above poster, they all have great points...#ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma color=#c080ff size=4#ed_cl##ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma color=#c080ff size=4#ed_cl#As for off the horse...watch how you walk. Do you walk with your toes pointed east and west.....or close to?? If yes, try bringing them in when you walk, from your hip. I know alot of people who walk like that, and have a  very hard time changing to the proper riding position as a result of it....so that would be a good *off sadle* suggestion.#ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma color=#c080ff size=4#ed_cl##ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma color=#c080ff size=4#ed_cl#Best of luck!#ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Caballo]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Hello,#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I have recently learned that it is standard to keep the lower leg on the horse, not clamped or squeezing, but in a "draped" fashion.  You always want your calf to have a contact with the horse's sides in walk, sitting trot, the sitting beat in posting trot, and canter.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#This way you can always guide and balance your horse...ride him with every step.  I watched a clinic with #ed_op#FONT size=2#ed_cl#Albrecht Heidemann once where he said "...your leg on the horse should be like giving him a hug in the dark."  What a quote!  I have always thought that this is the perfect way of looking at how your leg contact should be...now the problem is achieving it!!!#ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT size=2#ed_cl##ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT size=2#ed_cl#So I guess that your "hunter leg" is not entirely a bad thing...at least you have a notion of what contact with the sides of the horse is...now you just have to tune it to dressage!#ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT size=2#ed_cl##ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT size=2#ed_cl#-Caballo#ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Winston]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Ok the best advice i got was put all your wieght on your pinky toe, and try to keep even contact throughtout your thigh knee calf...sorry thats all i got!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Rio Roulette]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Yes, your calf should be in contact with the horse. That way when you do go to give an aid, it's not a suprise to the horse. Same theory as the rein contact. To go from no contact to contact, is hard to control so that it's not a "slap" to the horse, but rather a nudge or niggle and a give. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Think of wrapping your legs around the horse, and "think" kneeling. Your toe position comes from your hip position, not your ankle or knee angle./direction. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#As rickie said, walk toed in for a while and feel the tension that results in the front of your hips where your leg joint joins your body, when you ride it's the opposite effort, -- that is, go for that hip position and your toes will follow. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[horsecrazy333]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Thanks guys.  It sounds like I'm on the right track.  I like the idea of 'draping the leg'.  I guess I'm just used to using my calves for balance.  The problem is I was a ballerina for 25 years and you use your calves to establish balance and find your center.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I do walk a little toe out so I'm going to concentrate on that too.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Thanks so much.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I have my torture lesson tomorrow and the Fall Classic on Saturday.  I'll let you all know how it goes.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[xena_n_joss]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#draping the leg is the correct dressagey way. I was always told, you relax your leg and let it hang like a wet rag.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Doing work without stirrups is a good excersize to pratice just letting your leg hang. You really need to relax your butt cheeks to get your leg fully relaxed and hanging down. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Youll notice in dressage while the riders heel is down, its not stuck down as much as a jumper or hunter. And you should have the same leg position with or without stirrups. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[halt at X]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Just a note about putting your weight on your "pinky" toe and about "wrapping your legs around the horse" - please be aware that this is not the solution for everyone. It really depends on what the original problem is, and that is so hard to diagnose online. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#For example, I might tell a student to put the weight on the pinky toe if they have a tendency to break the ankle inwards and the foot outwards (so that the bottom of the boot is visible from the side). Weighting the outside of the foot then helps to straighten the ankle which is where the problem originates (along with some possible tension issues). It also helps to stop the calf from gripping on the horse's side, and create a more supple and breathing connection through the leg. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#However, if I were to suggest putting the weight on the pinky toe to a student who is already trying to wrap her legs around the horse's barrel, this will only exacerbate the problem. This student already has a leg that is "too" draped (if that is possible!). Because the bones in our legs are straight, it is physically impossible for them to curve around the horse's barrel. If the rider tries to achieve this, then they usually pull the knee too far away from the saddle and curl the ankle inwards too much in their efforts to wrap a straight thigh bone and a straight calf bone around a barrel. Suggesting that this rider place more weight on the pinky toe will not correct her problem. This rider needs to actually think about taking the lower part of the calf AWAY from the horse's side and placing her weight more evenly through the ball of the foot. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Just be aware that corrections to equitation issues are not always easy to diagnose and depending on what the actual problem is for the rider, the solution that works for one rider can be completely opposite from the solution that works for another rider. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Oh... and I agree 100% with Rio Roulette. The toe position comes from the hip. It's the same concept as I wrote above. A rider's bones can't bend, therefore if your leg is pointed outwards from the hip, you make it physically impossible to have the knees or toes pointing forwards. Fix the hip position, and quite often the entire leg falls into place. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Good luck.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[horsecrazy333]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Thanks so much halt at X.  I just came back from Yoga class at lunch and we did some exercises to open up the hip and relax the muscles.  I think this will help for sure.  I do find I grip with my lower leg and largely because of being a ballerina that is your balance spot.  The tighter the butt and leg the more balanced you are.  Opposite for riding.  I'm working on riding off the tight and relaxing the lower leg as you mention.  Just wondering if there were exercises I could use to work on me.  Emma has totally go the hang of things now!.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Thanks everyone.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[HappilyEverAfter]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Youll notice in dressage while the riders heel is down, its not stuck down as much as a jumper or hunter. And you should have the same leg position with or without stirrups. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#P#ed_cl#

#ed_op#/P#ed_cl##ed_op#P#ed_cl# #ed_op#/P#ed_cl##ed_op#P#ed_cl#I FULLY agree with this!! Two of my best friends ride on both ends of the spectrum- one is intense dressage (FEI Jr) and the other is *hardcore* hunter/jumper!#ed_op#/P#ed_cl##ed_op#P#ed_cl#My dressage friends' legs are always relaxed and her heels dont look like they're down. Some days her feet look completely level and parrallel to the ground; whereas my H/J friends' heels are always way down!!!#ed_op#/P#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I have found, after training H/J for 8 years and now switching to dressage, that in order to be an effective dressage rider you have to really let any tension go in your knee and ankle, really allowing the leg to "hang" from your hip. I found that as a H/J I was always keeping a strong or tense lower leg because I needed it to be firm to have a good base for my two point.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#My dressage friend always looks so loose that I spent one hour trying to imitate her legs, and after 45 minutes finally figured out that I was trying to ride with a H/J "base" in dressage length stirrups.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Trust me. It DOES NOT work! haha#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#No stirrup work definitley does the trick tho. I also find that if my coach lunges me for 20 minutes with no stirrups and no reins then my seat improves a bazillion times and my legs really lengthen out. I usually have to drop my stirrups a hole or two after I've been lunged!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#My coach has some really great exercises for helping to get "dressagey" legs...I shall post them later!!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[cadence]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#There are lots of ideas posted on here.  You should try all of them and give each of them time to work or not work.  I have another, different idea that you could try if those don't work. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#For some people with toe-out problems, they are twisting their leg from their hip socket. As Rio stated and is correct. The whole leg follows your hip alignment. Once the muscles have been trained to stretch and sit in a certain way, it becomes "natural" to have a toe sticking out.  You'll find you're walking with a toe-out position too.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#So, to fix this, it takes time and lots of stretching.  You'll be more successful first at a halt, then walk, then rising trot, then canter and finally sitting trot...#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Lift your entire leg off the saddle and rotate your leg inward directly from the hip, then place it back on the saddle.  Let it sit there at a halt for a while, then try applying the inner calf to the horse's side to ask for a walk transition.  Guaranteed within 3 steps you'll look down and your toe will be sticking out again!  Don't despair!  Just keep trying it.  When your muscles get very achey and sore, stop doing that for the day and let them rest.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#You could also practice sitting on the floor with an upright back (leaning against a wall or the couch) with your legs straight out in front of you.  Rotate your legs inwards from the hip as much as you can even if your toes turn inwards.  Hold for 30 seconds and rest.  Lengthen the time gradually until you are habitually doing it and the leg is staying straight almost without thought.  If you persist, your whole leg will become re-situated in its socket and the correct muscles will learn to stretch out and the incorrect ones start to shorten.  It is the process of stretching and shortening that will re-position your leg and eventually it will follow to your saddle.  Dressage requires the use of the inside of your leg.  Only with that position will you have the ability to properly use your seatbones and weight aids or get your horse listening to your inside leg and working on the outside rein. With an effective correctly positioned inside leg, your horse will become more on the bit and more actively forward and released in his inside shoulder and inside hind.  People with crooked thighs/hips have trouble recognizing whether they are sitting equally on both seatbones. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#As well, practice walking with your hip/thigh muscles rotated forward so that your toes start to point directly forwards.  At first you'll be waddling, but like I said, once the correct muscles lengthen or shorten respectively, that will cease to be a problem.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I'm working on perfecting my leg position too, although I have the additional burden of a left twisted shin bone that literally spirals outward so there is only a certain point that I'll be able to fix it, but the majority of it is a muscle issue in my thighs and hips. I found resting on my pinkie toe allows my heel to come up and I lose my stirrups so it doesn't work for me.  Riding without stirrups will work as long as you are consciously thinking about your hip and thigh position.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[snowpony]

I started doing yoga 2-3 times a week about 3 years ago, and I noticed an improvement in my seat as a result - as well as my general fitness & flexibility. It helps loosen up those hip & other joints a bit, strengthens core muscles but doesn't give you tight bunchy muscles like weightlifting (which we all get enough of carrying water buckets and hay bales right?).

To start, I just bought a DVD at the bookstore and started doing that at home, but now I also attend classes at the YMCA which are even better - a bit of variety

When you sit in the saddle, try to imagine lifting your legs out from the horse, and i you tend to have a thigh that drifts too far forward, think lift out and also back.

At the same time, expand your abdomen out and up, this will ensure you are not arching your lower back and tilting your pelvis forward... which would make it difficult to let your leg reach straight down like it should.

Good luck