Thoroughbred stallions in dressage

[prjob]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Hello All,#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I was wondering if I could get some suggestions of thoroughbred stallions out there that are competitive, or produce offspring that are competitive, in dressage. Actually I'm interested in any thoroughbred stallion, but beautiful movement and head carriage are of high importance, which has made me think that the dressage arena is the place to look. As a side note, the higher the natural head carriage the better and the more animation in movement the better.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I'm an outsider to dressage (and thoroughbreds actually) so any help would be appreciated. Thanks!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Chisholm]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Well I don't know of any TB stallions but I just wanted to say that there are TB's in Dressage but they are not the top breed.   You are more likely to see the warmbloods.  Many a TB have been very successful in Dressage but when you think Stallions for Dressage one immediately thinks Warmbloods.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Good luck.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[cadence]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I second Chisholm.  By far, the most successful breeds in Dressage is the warmblood types - Hanoverian, Swedish, Oldenburg, and Dutch are the top four.  Dutch can be quite hot in the head but if you can get through that they can be brilliant.  Hanoverian, Oldenburg and Swedish are bred for very kind temperament, easy trainability and extreme athleticism.  Trakheiners, Holsteiner, Russian, etc. are also very good, Russian are getting better by leaps and bounds. There are other warmblood types too but those are the main ones. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#What breed is the mare you are planning to breed to this stallion?  If she's thoroughbred, they cross very, very nicely with a warmblood.  They will even cross an Arabian with a warmblood.  Arabian and Thoroughbred are accepted refining bloods in the registries. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Sorry, I'm not being very helpful with good TB Stallions... I know Musing is a top jumper but he has such wonderful movement, almost warmblood type movement, that his offspring would probably do dressage very nicely too.  That is probably why he is also approved for Warmblood registries too.  Being a breeder myself, you could do all the research in the world about the stallion, but your priority is to research the stallion's offspring and how successful they are.  Look at how the offspring look - are they well put together and pleasing to the eye, does the stallion suit only a certain mare type, or does he improve most mares? Check out his sire and offspring of that stallion and also his grandsire.  And with all that the genetics can still play rogue with you. Genetics can back-track at least 3 generations quite easily. You put Mare X and Stallion Y together and baby looks like Great-grandpa on the dam's sire's side!    #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I also bid you good luck and good fun at finding the perfect stallion for your mare.    #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[cadence]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I just had a thought - Buy the stallion directory for the Canadian Sport Horse Association.  There are lots of very nice approved stallions in there.  They tell you what certification the stallion is approved for (Bronze, Silver, Gold Premiums) and mostly shown as (jumper, hunter, dressage, eventing, etc.). As well, it shows their true breed.  Stallions must be registered and/or branded with only 1 registry but can be approved in multiple registries for breeding purposes.  Thus a Thoroughbred is registered with the Jockey Club but approved by the Hanoverian Verband or Swedish or Holsteiner, etc.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Ruth]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Why are you looking for a TB stallion? Is your mare draft X? Some draft X mares do cross well with a more refined warmblood. Also if your primary objectives are a higher neck set and nice movement I would say an ASB might be better! TB's usually have a lower neck set.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Innkeeper is supposed to be very nice, I do like A Fine Romance, but he is more known for eventers and hunters. Timely Venture is also a lovely TB, and Musing as Cadence mentioned.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#The CSH directory does have a number of TB stallions in it, also you could look on the USEF's website, they have stallion rankings for each sport.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[prjob]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Hello,#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Thanks for the interest everyone. I know my request sounds a little strange... as I said I don't know much about dressage, but I know that if I were involved in breeding dressage horses I would almost certainly be incorporating warmblood breeding. My personal interest in horses is varied, and actually I find dressage very intriguing, but my first and true love is Hackney Horses (I know some of you must be shuddering now). How this relates to thoroughbred stallions is that there is a rule in the British Hackney stud book which allows the incorporation of thoroughbred blood... basically speaking a 3/4 hackney 1/4 thoroughbred horse can be registered as a hackney horse (although there various i's to dot and t's to cross along the way). I'm a molecular biologist by schooling (i.e. genetics) so of course I find the opportunity to incorporate outside blood to the small hackney gene pool an interesting option, so I have been attempting to research thoroughbred stallions and see if there are any that 'catch my eye'... I must reiterate that I am simply researching this option, I have no immeadiately plans to act on it.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#My thought was that was perhaps someone visiting this bulletin board could give me a tip that would direct me to a particular line of thoroughbreds that would meet up with what I would want for my 'hypothetical' breeding purposes. I will be doing some real breeding next year, but that only involves purebred hackneys at this point.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Thanks again.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Ruth]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Actually, my CSH gelding has a little Hackney in him, his grandfather on his dam's side is Tamarack who was a TB/Clyde/Hackney X. Also a friend of my coach's just bought a new driving horse that is Oldenburg/Gelderland/Hackney. Personally I don't mind a little Hackney! #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Now I know this isn't up to you, but would it not be better to allow outside blood from a more similar breed to the Hackney in to the studbook, I would think that Gelderland or American Saddlebred would be good breeds to introduce outside blood from. Not that there's anything wrong with TB blood, but those 2 breeds are known to be fine carriage horses, and TB's are not so much. I think the Gelderland book did allow some American Saddlebred blood in.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Chisholm]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#My last mount was a Arab/Clyde/ Hackney X.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#But I really think you have to decide how much you want to do Dressage.  Are you looking at Grandprix or Training Level.  Are you talking schooling shows or National Competions.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Dressage is a wonderful sport in that any breed can do Dressage.  And if they are built for it and athletic they can go all the way.  Breed assocations in the States have Dressage shows where horses in that breed show right up to Grandprix.  And I'm sure there are Hackneys out there too doing just that.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Pippa]

#ed_op#div#ed_cl#Actually, my CSH gelding has a little Hackney in#ed_op#br#ed_cl#him, his grandfather on his dam's side is Tamarack who was a#ed_op#br#ed_cl#TB/Clyde/Hackney X. Also a friend of my coach's just bought a new#ed_op#br#ed_cl#driving horse that is Oldenburg/Gelderland/Hackney. Personally I don't#ed_op#br#ed_cl#mind a little Hackney! #ed_op#/div#ed_cl##ed_op#div#ed_cl#Now I know this isn't up to you, but#ed_op#br#ed_cl#would it not be better to allow outside blood from a more similar breed#ed_op#br#ed_cl#to the Hackney in to the studbook, I would think that Gelderland or#ed_op#br#ed_cl#American Saddlebred would be good breeds to introduce outside blood#ed_op#br#ed_cl#from. Not that there's anything wrong with TB blood, but those 2 breeds#ed_op#br#ed_cl#are known to be fine carriage horses, and TB's are not so much. I think#ed_op#br#ed_cl#the Gelderland book did allow some American Saddlebred blood in.#ed_op#/div#ed_cl#

#ed_op#br#ed_cl##ed_op#br#ed_cl#The gelderland book allowed some Hackney blood in at one time, #ed_op#br#ed_cl#however it is not a favourable line to have now.  (Not that I am#ed_op#br#ed_cl#against it,  just a fashion thing.)  It is very hard to find#ed_op#br#ed_cl#stallions that are advertised as having Gelderland blood.  There#ed_op#br#ed_cl#are 2 living stallions that I know if in Canada,  Kadans (50%) and#ed_op#br#ed_cl#Vulcaan.  The only other one that I knew of was Immigrant#ed_op#br#ed_cl#(50%).  He has since passed away.#ed_op#br#ed_cl##ed_op#br#ed_cl##ed_op#br#ed_cl##ed_op#br#ed_cl#Have you seen Tricolor?  He has lovely dressage movement.  He is a#ed_op#br#ed_cl#pinto warmblood by Voltaire.  There is a TB stallion called#ed_op#br#ed_cl#Stevearoo.  He competed successfully in dressage.#ed_op#br#ed_cl#

[Judy F]

Actually, many warmblood breeds have infused a significant amount of TB
blood into their lines in order to improve their rideablity. 
Anyone who has tried to sit a WB can understand why the men who used to
ride postilon on carraige horses invented posting to make their buns
last longer.  

[Ruth]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Pippa: I heard Kadans had been gelded??? I'm not sure who my coach's friend's horse is by, he could very well be imported, this woman is not short of money and has competed at the World Championships with her previous horse.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I forgot about Steevaroo.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[prjob]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Ruth,#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#You have brought up a point that has been discussed before... using something a little more 'fine harness' type (saddlebred, gelderlander, etc.) than thoroughbred blood to bring outside blood into the hackney. But, it is my understanding that the use of thoroughbred blood has been allowed by the British because a large proportion of the hackneys lineage is derived from throughbred lines way, way back. It's my impression that they would consider the use of anything else a mortal sin #ed_op#IMG src="/richedit/smileys/classic.gif"#ed_cl# And actually its only the British hackney stud book that allows this, not the Canadian or United States books, but as both of the latter stud books allow the registration of anything registered in the British stud book, there is a way to do this in North America in a round-about way.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I've worked with many hackney clydesdale crosses that were great horses, both in harness and under saddle. Friends of mine now have a beautiful hackney clydesdale cross stallion that I'm thinking of breeding to in the future. He is by a very large (16.1 HH) hackney horse stallion out of a very fine clydesdale mare. He's a big boy, very solid but also refined, good tempered and from what little I have seen, it appears that he has very beautiful motion... lots of bounce and float if you know what I mean. As he is only 3 he just bred a couple of mares this year but I think he's going to become more popular in the coming years to people looking to breed to that type of horse.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Ruth]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I'm not saying there's anything wrong with adding TB - just to me it makes more sense to add Saddlebred or Gelderland. Saddlebreds already have a high neck set, and are usually pretty good movers. I'm sure the British Studbook is quite inflexible in the matter! #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I think it was actually another Dutch harness breed (starts with a T and ends with a paard) that allowed Saddlebred in for awhile.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[graciespook]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I think the TB would make a nice edition. If you're looking for low level in Ontario, you could always try Guarenteed Gold, or Yellowcreek (is that right?) who have done some dressage, hunter and eventing...I'm not very good at this. Although I seem to end up with nothing but Thoroughbreds or crosses myself, I seem to know much more about the warmblood gene pool and what there is to offer. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[graciespook]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I think the TB would make a nice edition. If you're looking for low level in Ontario, you could always try Guarenteed Gold, or Yellowcreek (is that right?) who have done some dressage, hunter and eventing...I'm not very good at this. Although I seem to end up with nothing but Thoroughbreds or crosses myself, I seem to know much more about the warmblood gene pool and what there is to offer. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[prjob]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Ruth,#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#The Dutch horse you are referring to is the Tuigpaard, also known as the Dutch Harness Horse. This is not a breed of horse, but rather a type, like many warmbloods. It allows the use of any animal in breeding that has been approved through their keuring process. And you are correct, there has been a recent infusion of Saddlebred blood... although we hackney people like to point out the important influence the Hackney has had on this registry #ed_op#IMG src="/richedit/smileys/classic.gif"#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Graciespook,#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I have considered Guaranteed Gold... I would certainly get some attention if I were to breed the first Hackney with a dilute gene in it, although it might not all be positive attention!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[graciespook]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#But imagine the publicity!! I don't necessarily see it as a negative thing. Colour is starting to become more popular as far as trends go. I don't think there was a warm embrace when coloured tb's, etc starting showing up, but they go for mega bucks now (remember when the hunters used to be all bays, blacks, a few chestnuts and maybe if you were lucky a grey? ) #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[prjob]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#The publicity would be good.... using thoroughbred blood would also be a way to re-introduce grey into the Hackney. I believe there were grey Hackneys way back, but they 'fell out of fashion' and now there aren't any... same with pinto-type colouring. Of course I have to admit I have a slight bias against greys... there was a grey QH in a barn I used to be in that suffered from the common melanoma problem and on one occasion when the owner of this horse asked me to take a look at the affected area and I nearly lost my lunch. Since then I haven't been so keen on owning a grey.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Positively4thStreet]

#ed_op#P#ed_cl#

#ed_op#BR#ed_cl##ed_op#BR#ed_cl#Have you seen Tricolor?  He has lovely dressage movement.  He is a pinto warmblood by Voltaire. 

#ed_op#/P#ed_cl##ed_op#P#ed_cl#If you're going to go for a pinto warmblood by Voltaire, go with Tricolor's full brother, Sandstorm-- the MUCH finer stallion, if you ask me. Had two babies by him this year, and they are absolutely GORGEOUS.#ed_op#/P#ed_cl##ed_op#P#ed_cl#From what I've seen of Tricolor, he's nice, but he's nothing special. Sandstorm has that "something extra", in my opinion, and he just looks nicer.#ed_op#/P#ed_cl##ed_op#P#ed_cl##ed_op#A href="http://www.boschfarms.com/sandstorm.html"#ed_cl#http://www.boschfarms.com/sandstorm.html#ed_op#/A#ed_cl##ed_op#/P#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#