Canter Departures

[RioG]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#SPAN class=postbody#ed_cl#I cut and pasted this post that I made on UDBB#ed_op#/SPAN#ed_cl# so if it is redundant it is because I don't post there often - no one knows me like they do here!  I would love your input though.  Ruth et al- what are your thoughts?#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#SPAN class=postbody#ed_cl#I have just recently begun schooling my 13 year old mare in dressage. I have found a wonderful coach who subscribes to the classical method (I am very new to all of this so forgive me if I get the terminology wrong) and she is helping me to ride the horse #ed_op#SPAN style="FONT-STYLE: italic"#ed_cl#correctly#ed_op#/SPAN#ed_cl# which in turn is doing amazing things for her soundness. She has rather poor conformation and naturally travels on the forehand. This compounded by arthritis almost made me retire her completely and simply put her out to pasture. #ed_op#BR#ed_cl##ed_op#BR#ed_cl#We have started from the very basics. Teaching her to accept the contact and are currently working in the walk and trot on balance, rhythm and transitions. #ed_op#BR#ed_cl##ed_op#BR#ed_cl#I would like to begin asking for some canter work but am not sure if she is ready. I would #ed_op#SPAN style="FONT-STYLE: italic"#ed_cl#assume#ed_op#/SPAN#ed_cl# that if a horse is travelling balanced and correctly (keeping in mind her rudimentary dressage and even athletic abilities) and is able to pick up the correct lead immediately upon my asking, that that horse is collected and balanced enough for the canter work. Is this assumption incorrect? Can a horse have immediate canter departs from a walk and still be travelling on the forehand? #ed_op#BR#ed_cl##ed_op#BR#ed_cl#I want to progress in our work and attempt to increase her fitness level by adding in the canter work but need to know if doing so is actually benefitting her or simply going to prolong the "re-schooling" if she isn't travelling properly.#ed_op#/SPAN#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#SPAN class=postbody#ed_cl##ed_op#/SPAN#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#SPAN class=postbody#ed_cl#Addendum: I've recently become aware of the training pyramid, which does not emphasize collection until much later in the training, for forgive me if collection is the wrong word to use here.  Of course I am not talking collection in the sense of Passage and Piaffe, but rather travelling in a frame and using their back end to push.  I didn't think to include that on my post over at UDBB.#ed_op#/SPAN#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Leena]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Well, what I have been doing with my mare and any other horse on any stage is lunging. On the lunge, I am working transitions which is great to improve balance and straightness of the horse without having my weight on.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#If you want to start canter depart from walk, or any other transition, this is the best way to start and will help you to see where your mare have trouble.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Good luck with her !#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Leena#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[RioG]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Thank you for your reply Leena. Normally I would be quick to work her on the lunge, but with this horse I am staying away from lungeing as much as possible because of her soundness problems.  I don't want to put any more stress on her joints than necessary.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Patricia]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Well if things are progressing well in walk/trot....you could introduce canter from trot.  It is much easier on them.  To develop the gait do losts of transitions from trot to canter and back.  This gets them on the aids and off the forehand.  Asking for canter from a walk is down the road.  They must truely be moving from behind and fitness level good and on the aid for walk/canter.  When asking for walk/canter--At the point it is almost like a whisper and more from seat than legs...#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[jax]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I agree, start working trot to canter and see how she progresses.  Depending on her fitness level, she may initially drop onto the forehand at the canter at first, but doing a few more up and down transitions will help.  Ask for the canter while the inside hind is active (basically when the outside front is forward) to get a nice clean transition into the canter.  You may also want to do a bit of canter work in a slightly forward seat to let her get her back up at first.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Once you know she is comfortable in canter and is handling the transitions without falling out, then work to a walk/canter depart.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[xena_n_joss]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#If she is that old and artheritic, I dont see anything wrong with lunging her for a few days at the canter so she can gain her own balance back without your weight to contend with as well. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#After I would do some regular canter work with her while you are riding her. There is no need to rush intransitions before she has proper muscle built up. After she is comfortable then certainly transitions are very good. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[graciespook]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I was told once that it was much easier for them to depart from walk to canter, but they must be off the forehand. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Lots of transition work will help with this. It will help to engage the hind end and have them working more from behind and less from up front. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Judy F]

Thirteen is not 'old' in horse terms, she's still essentially in her
prime years.  Have you tried her on glucosamine?  #ed_op#br#ed_cl#
#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
I can understand not wanting to work her on the lunge too much. 
Ten minutes max per side, once or twice a week should not stress her
too much.  Mainly you need to keep working on the
transistions.  Cantering helps improve the trot and transitions do
get the horse working more from behind.  Keep her sessions of real
work as short as possible and be happy with small improvements as you
go.#ed_op#br#ed_cl#

[RioG]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Thank you for the replies!!  You guys are so much quicker to respond than "over there" #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#The reason I threw in the comment about  walk - canter transitions is because in the past they have always been easier for her.  Strange but true for a looooong backed front-end heavy mare.  However with the balance we are learning at the trot it feels like the canter departure would be easy from that gait as well.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Supplements are coming with my raise (I got a promotion).  Actually by far the biggest improvement has come from regular and correct riding.  Obviously I am just learning so "correct" is no where near perfect but she seems to really enjoy it.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Right now we're mainly riding 20m circles with some laps around the whole arena to change it up.  We keep it short and sweet and I ride 4x/wk.  She is very slowly developing muscle and if I can keep up this schedule I hope to have her fit and sound by spring.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Leena]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#RioG#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I understand your point but let me tell you that with arthritis, 20 minutes walk warm up is one of the key. One of the bad thing athritis does is getting the joints more stiff and painfull so a light exercice just warm up the joints and relieve the pain. It is like for us human; the more you move the less you feel pain.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#If she was better doing canter from the walk, this means she did it by a very strong balance and a powerfull back and hind. Does she has that right now ? Beginning by trot-canter would be easier, as others mentionned.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Good luck with her !!!!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Leena#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[RioG]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Thanks Leena, I've never thought about the walk- canter transitions like that before.  I have always considered Rio to have had a weak hind end, but obviously if she was able to do walk to canter transitions easily then at one time it must have been fairly strong.  I would have to say that now though it is definitely weak from extended time off and sporadic riding.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I always try to make sure we walk for 15-20 min. before moving into trot work.  Thank you for reminding me how important that is.  She is also on full turn out day and night unless the weather is bad and that helps as well.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Leena]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#RioG, #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Also, what you could do #ed_op#EM#ed_cl##ed_op#STRONG#ed_cl#if you can#ed_op#/STRONG#ed_cl##ed_op#/EM#ed_cl# is hot hydro therapy. You cannot know how good it feels to have warm water ...or anything warm on arthritis painfull joints !#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#25 years ago, I was asked to ride a horse who was on bute. This horse had arthritis and at the time I ask my father who is a general practitian what was the treatment he was doing beside cortisone. He told me : 20 minutes walk everyday. I did that with the horse and sooner we could have him without bute and not lame. He almost got back as he was before except that we could not jump him too much.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Leena#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[babytigger]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#rio, as the others have mentioned......i'd think that getting her balanced & engaging her hind end would really help with the canter transistions (from either walk or trot, but i'd think esp from walk!). lots of transistions should help her to get off the forehand & engage her hind end as well, plus it keeps her active & thinking.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#glad you've found something that's working for the ole' girl!!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[RioG]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Well... last night was interesting.  She was going decently (not as good as she can) and so I got impatient and asked for the canter.  Bad idea.  Neither of us was relaxed enough to do it well.  On the upside she listened to my cue and gave me the lead, but he brain was pretty frazzled doing it.  Actually, her right lead is wonderful, it's the left that she has trouble with.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#So, on the upside, I know where we stand and where to go from here.  I'm going to leave the canter alone again and continue working on trot and keeping it forward and relaxed.  I will work one day of longeing into our routine (provided she stays sound) and ask for some canter work there.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Given that the horse needs an extended warm up and we're working outside all winter (no indoor, but a wonderful barn owner who is going to try and keep the outdoor ring conditioned for work) what are your thoughts on riding first and then longeing with some canter work?  I don't want to ask her for the canter work until she's thoroughly warmed up, but also need to keep our longeing sessions very short to prevent strain on her joints.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[xena_n_joss]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#If you are planning to lunge after, I would keep the actual ride shorter itself, because like you said, you dont want to be hard on her joints. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Lunging wont strain her joints. Lunging her properly to get her back into shape is actually easier on the horse then with a rider. And I really think cantering on the lunge line will be most beneficial for your situation. Because in order for a horse to use its back and go properly it must be comfortable in the pace. And getting her to canter on her own will help her find her own balance. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I think you will notice when she is on glucosamine that there is an improvement as well. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[RioG]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Good point about keeping the ride short, xena, and I would actually be treating the ride as a warm up, instead of the longeing as a warm up.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Just to clarify though, excessive longeing can be very hard on a horses joints.  Keeping them on a small circle when they have existing soundness problems can exacerbate and even worsen the problem.  If you think about it, travelling in a relatively small circle for extended periods of time puts undue strain on the inside legs.  I agree that longeing is a wonderful tool to strengthen a horse and helps to introduce concepts without a rider getting in the way, but in some cases you just have to be careful, and this is one of them.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Ruth]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I think that might be a good approach to ride first and lunge briefly at the end. I do that with my young pony who is having left lead troubles, although in her case it is likely just lack of strength, and will improve with work. We work on our walk/trot stuff and then at the end I lunge her for a few minutes on the left and do 2 or 3 canter transitions and that's it.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# Some horses do find the walk to canter easier than the trot to canter, but sometimes that is to do with a soundness issue. They certainly can do walk/canter when on the forehand (just ask Boomer#ed_op#IMG src="http://forums.equestrianconnection.com/richedit/smileys/Teasing/17.gif"#ed_cl#), it is the canter/walk transition that is difficult to do unless they are balanced back at least a little.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Transitions will help build her strength.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Do you think she'll be OK with her feet once the ground freezes?#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[RioG]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Thanks for you input Ruth.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#With Rio I am honestly not sure if it is soundness issues or strength issues.  It is undeniable that there are soundness problems, but the more I ride her the better she is soundness wise.  So I am currently leaning towards her being able to do the work (low levels only, of course) once her strength and condition is back to where it should be.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#As far as her feet and the frozen ground... that's a wait and see.  If the ring can be maintained and kept worked up (don't know if this is possible) than I am hopeful we'll be good to go.  I've asked the blacksmith about full pads on his next visit to help protect her from the hard ground.  They should also help with snow build up.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I have seen some definite, definite improvements in Rio since the regular work started back up.  There are still days when she is sore but her toe-dragging has lessened considerably and her footfalls are true.  She looks forward to the work and really seems to like it when we get it "right".#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I'm going to give the weekly longeing sessions a try for a time before attempting the canter work again.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#