Behind the bit, or actually correct???

[RioG]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Quick question... the other day while working on a 20m circle at the trot we had several moments of what felt wonderful.  She felt light in my hands and was travelling well (and SOUND!!).  I praised her to no end thinking this was what we were looking for, and then the doubts started creeping in.  I now wonder if the lightness I felt was actually her getting behind the bit and actually evading the contact.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#The only way I know to explain it is she felt like she was carrying herself.  She was no longer heavy in my hand and yet her position and posture did not change.  For a few strides it felt like she was maintaining her head and neck carriage while travelling in a balanced manner completely on her own.  We were able to replicate this several times during that ride, but not since.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Am I right to be worried that this was actually her evading the contact?  Or did we really experience what we were working for?  Of course no one was around at the time, and it might be some time before I get another lesson in.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[graciespook]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#What was the highest point of the frame? If it was the poll, and she was breaking at the poll, you had those wonderful few steps where its fantastic, but she could be cranked in too far. I find most horses that get behind the bit are horses who have had artificial aids helping them along (ie; side reins, draw reins) and they are used to not being truly on the bit. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#But I'd say with the light and elevated feeling where you can still have a nice soft feel on her mouth is the sweet spot. Congrats! #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Ruth]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Hard to say without seeing it. Personally I don't get all warped out of shape if they're a little BTV as long as they're working through the back from behind. Some horses will get a bit BTV until they get stronger. It's quite hard to tell from the rider's vantage point on the horse's back if they are slightly BTV, I find mirrors very helpful, but I think I recall you don't have access to an indoor?#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# Hopefully you would be able to tell if she was very behind anyway, so chances are if it felt good it was good and if she was a little behind I wouldn't sweat it.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Leena]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Rio, #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#It is totally normal that your horse has given you those super strides; he is a great one. Now it is totally normal that this exercice is hard for him to maintain for long so like Ruth says, because his hinds gets tired, his back then retains and there it goes; no contact...#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#As I am going through same phases with my mare, when she gets tired, her back get tight and she goes behind the bit. She never had draw reins but she is green, very sensible from the mouth (and everywhere as well). I just get back to walk exercices and there it goes until her fitness will be good enough for her to sustain the effort.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Just enjoy what your horse is capable and maybe he'll give you again and hopefully more.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#My 2 cents,#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Leena#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[RioG]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Thank you for your replies.  I think I'm correct in thinking that the poll is supposed to be the highest point of the frame, isn't it?  I try not to let her get her head too low unless we are working on a very long rein (we used to show QH, so she's used to the long, low, flat headset).  I also have trouble knowing whether or not she is working "through her back".  To be completely honest I'm not 100% clear on the definition of this term.  I can tell when she's floundering along on her forehand vs. travelling in a balanced frame, so this is what I use to judge whether or not we are going along properly.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I agree, it is hard to tell if the horse is BTV from their backs.  We have no indoor and no mirrors, so we're going strictly by what feels right at the moment.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#She definitely wasn't cranked in tight.  I'm careful never to ride her that way.  She was surprisingly quick to accept and appreciate the contact, and I don't want to ruin that.  I also don't use draw reins or side reins while riding.  Once or twice have used the side reins while longeing, but that is it.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Thanks again for your replies. At most we are shooting for being able to show very, very low level dressage together.  Her soundness and her conformation simply won't allow us to go further than that.  But I want to take her as far as absolutely possible even in the low levels, if that makes any sense.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[jax]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#At this point I wouldn't worry about the height of the poll either. What you felt was more than likely when she came into balance and was carrying herself.  If she was evading, chances are it would have lasted more than a few strides and there would have been some slack in the reins as opposed to a lightness.  I usually notice that the horse feels more "under" me and just moves much more easily.  With evasion it feels like the horse is uncomfortable underneath you.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Ruth]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Yeah, the height of the poll only becomes important when you get in the show ring. Of course you want to make sure you know how to achieve it beforehand, but honestly, my horse is schooling 3rd, and I don't always work him with his poll high, as long as his back end is active,  he is working through his back and carrying himself I'm happy. The feeling of them coming through the back is difficult to describe, but anytime you feel like your sitting trot is improving it's probably because your horse is working through her back, she will feel loose and like you are recycling the energy through her body and that all is flowing.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[*rickie*]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma color=#c080ff size=4#ed_cl#Best way for me to describe when a horse is carrying him/her-self properly, would be that when sitting trot (or any other stride) that you do not have to work at it at all. You purely just sit there and enjoy it (of coarse you would still have steady contact), ensuring that you don't make any sudden changes, which could cause him/her to loose it. And when they do loose it, you're right there to half-halt to try to acheive it again.#ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma color=#c080ff size=4#ed_cl##ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma color=#c080ff size=4#ed_cl#If it's right, it should feel effortless, and forward. If she's behind at all (in any way shape or form) she will not have the impulsion from behind, and you will feel like you  need to "push her on" more.#ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma color=#c080ff size=4#ed_cl##ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma color=#c080ff size=4#ed_cl#Hope that helps a bit.#ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[LucasL]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#When your horse is in self carriage, you should be able to release your hands forward slightly and have him reach for the contact while maintaining the same rhythm and tempo. Start with your inside hand and then move to both. You should have the feeling that you are riding from your seat/legs alone and that your horse is attentively waiting for your next signal.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Chisholm]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Here's one thing to think about.  Instead of thinking about the poll being the highest point, think about the shoulders lifting up.  Especially horses built slightly downhill.  Think about lifting up the shoulders when asking the quarters to engage.  This worked wonders with my guy.  Visualize riding your horse up a steep hill.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Ruth]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma color=#c080ff size=4#ed_cl# And when they do loose it, you're right there to half-halt to try to acheive it again.#ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma color=#c080ff size=4#ed_cl##ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma color=#c080ff size=4#ed_cl##ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl#

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Well, ideally you want to half-halt before they lose it so that you can maintain the self-carriage. It's pretty hard to learn when without feeling like you're constantly bugging your horse though. I know my coach can see when my horse is just starting to get flat sooner than I feel it, but I am getting better at recognizing him starting to lose his self-carriage faster than I used to. Also I know there are certain times that he will definitely try to fall on his forehand so I half-halt before we are going to head into the situation that he finds difficult. It's a good practice to half-halt before corners or when changing direction, or doing anything different to say "Hey, something's going to happen here, pay attention"#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[*rickie*]

#ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma color=#c080ff size=4#ed_cl# #ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# Also I know there are certain times that he will definitely try to fall on his forehand so I half-halt before we are going to head into the situation that he finds difficult.

#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma color=#c080ff size=4#ed_cl#Everything you said Ruth is #ed_op#STRONG#ed_cl#VERY#ed_op#/STRONG#ed_cl# true, but if you feel that you horse is "trying" to fall on his forehand, you've lost the self carriage at "try" unless you have really good feel and reaction time.#ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma color=#c080ff size=4#ed_cl##ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma color=#c080ff size=4#ed_cl#I know that the mare that I'm training right now, she has wonderful self carriage, but when she looses it, she gets really rolling in the trot (like a run away car) and I really have to sit back, rebalance and establish it right again. There are many times I can prevent it from happening, as I can start to feel her "trying" to roll away, but even at the "try to roll" stage she's begun to loose it, and roll away, so I am right there to half halt. But I'll admit in many cases, I'm not quick enough to react to it, and she's rolling away before I even know it.#ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma color=#c080ff size=4#ed_cl##ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma color=#c080ff size=4#ed_cl#That's what I mean, about when they loose it, you're right there to start all over again. That's the learning process of it. Yes of coarse, an experienced rider would have the feel to stop them from loosing the self carriage, but when you're 1st learning, you'll have self carriage for a few strides, and you'll not "do" anything, in hopes to keep it as long as you can, and then you'll loose it, and have to start all over again. That's how we learn to develop the feel so that we can sustain the self carriage longer, and know when the horse is going to "loose" it. That's what I mean when I said, "And when they do loose it, you're right there to half-halt to try to acheive it again"#ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma color=#c080ff size=4#ed_cl##ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma color=#c080ff size=4#ed_cl#Hope that makes it a little clearer....#ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Ruth]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Rickie, what I was trying to say was that I know in certain situations he finds balance more difficult, so I half- halt before we head into them (ie. changing rein to the right - his difficult direction - he will try to lean his ribs in on me and lose his balance and self-carriage) therefore I half-halt strongly just past the quarter line in order to help him maintain his balance, before he loses it. I know he will do this to some degree, so a preventive half-halt is needed, even if at the point where I give it he is in good balance.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Not that I'm saying my horse never loses self-carriage or balance while I school him, but I am getting better and recognizing when to half-halt before he falls apart so much that he needs a strong, obvious half-halt.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Anyway I think we are getting at the same thing in different ways!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[xena_n_joss]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#When your horse is in self carriage, you should be able to release your hands forward slightly and have him reach for the contact while maintaining the same rhythm and tempo. Start with your inside hand and then move to both. You should have the feeling that you are riding from your seat/legs alone and that your horse is attentively waiting for your next signal.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#This is one of the most correct explainations on this page... When your horse is truely woking from beind and proper, their nose is actually pushed out the slightest bit. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I have never seen any horses in training put through a full workout with walk breaks whether it is a horse just starting out of an advanced level dressage horse. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Yes, to a certain point you make your horse work and half halt before your horse falls out, because this trains them to hold themselves longer.... But you cant keep doing it over and over, because te horses is usually getting tired when it starts to fall out, so this should be a sign... OK horse, we're going to half half and work just a couple minutes longer and then you will have a break... type thing... even the littlest bit helps. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#A good rider will half halt before the horse falls out, an even better rider can gage when the horse has had enough and knows when to break for a few minutes.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Luckily with my horse I can feel the second she thinks of doing something else, she is a big horse, I can tell if she is planning on bucking before she even bucks... shes very easy to read.  On a smaller horse I find its harder to feel through them. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[graciespook]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I find that leaving things on a good note--ie; the circle was great, round, and forward--helps to reinforce the 'good job'. I find they come back more willing to work and are more correct. Not simply when they get tired.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[RioG]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Again, wonderful replies, thank you.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Gracie, I agree about always ending on a good note.  I am just starting out in dressage, but have been riding for a fairly long time and no matter the discipline, that is always a good rule.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Ruth and Rickie - I think you were both getting at the same thing!  I had a wonderful lesson on the weekend where we began working on being forward.  We worked on doing a lot of changes of directions (serpentines and circles) and it was imperative that I got those half halts in there during the change in direction, or we went to hell in a handbasket.  What was a great moment for me was when I realized that the half halts were actually being successful and we were actually able to maintain the balance throughout the change and into the next direction!!  During my short dressage learning career this is something I've been struggling with.  We would get to the point where we were travelling very well in one direction, and then would change reins only to have it all fall apart.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I am becoming more enamored with this discipline every day.  What a wonderful feeling to know that while satisfying my desire to ride I am actually helping my mare become sound and healthy.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[cadence]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#My coach, Roy, always says, "When they do what you want, even a little bit, stop."  They remember the stop as a reward and they become more willing to put out more next time.  When he's teaching a young horse to canter, he gets them to canter a few strides only and then stops.  That's their reward.  He can teach a horse correct leads in one 45 minute ride using this method. He also ignores mistakes.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#His horses are always so forward, relaxed and happy, it's incredible.  He can change an excitable, temperamental, spazzy horse into a happy, relaxed and calm horse in just a few rides.  The breaks and rewards are key.  The greener the horse, the newer the concept, the more frequent the breaks and rewards. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#