Did you know? (Rant!)

[PerfectAngel]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Well, now that we seem to have expressed our opinions, I was wondering if anyone else could/would find a picture that "represented" what they though of as a nice hunter? I find it useful (maybe it's just me) to dissect and discuss what we think is good/bad, because then when I go work with my own horse, I have many things to try....plus, you get a feel of hpw other regions are judged, etc. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Sodapoppers]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I think my picture was a nice schooling-level hunter :D But then again I am biased! #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[PerfectAngel]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#lol....yours was a good start for schooling hunters soda...it was in fact very good for schooling hunters!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I found (in my browsings....) a couple of pics that show a hunter moving nicely from behind, just to show to the "non-believers" out there that it IS possible. I am not trying to start a fight, honestly, but I think that I oughta *prove* what I am saying....so:#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#IMG src="http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y12/ShezaPerfectAngel/Hunter5.jpg"#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#IMG src="http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y12/ShezaPerfectAngel/Hunter6.jpg"#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#And here is one of those dressage "on the forhand" frames that I refered to:#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#IMG src="http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y12/ShezaPerfectAngel/dressage2.jpg"#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Anyways, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I figured I'd better back mine up with *proof*....lol#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Edited 'cause I STILL can't spell#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Sodapoppers]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##1 and too still look to be travelling downhill to me. It is easy for a horse to track up and still be on the forehand, especially if they are young or large with the bigger legs or a short back. #2 is also looking heavy on the forehand but probably my pick.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##3 Looks more like a dressage-type horse.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[PerfectAngel]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##3 is a dressage-type horse, but is heavy on the forehand despite almost being in a dressagey frame. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##2 appears to have a fairly free-moving shoulder, same with #1. They appear to have no trouble lifting their shoulders and moving their legs out, and they are also tracking up behind (someone mentioned that in a previous post). #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#A horse with a lower headset almost always appears to be travellign downhill, it's just the way our eyes see it. It's the same when a horse is in a dressage-type frame, we automatically think that they are travelling on the hind end and lightly in the hands, which is not always the case. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Sodapoppers]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#IMO, this is a much more pleasant picture to look at:#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#A href="http://hometown.aol.com/_ht_a/rready4/English.jpg"#ed_cl#http://hometown.aol.com/_ht_a/rready4/English.jpg#ed_op#/A#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#If you take away teh background and the horse looks like he is going downhill, that's just not good! #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#edited to say just discount that rider's eq!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[PerfectAngel]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#true, that horse is not travelling downhill, but he also doesn't really have any headset...the point that I was *trying* to make was that a horse with a lower headset can also move from behind. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#However, that is a nice picture to look at and he does look like he is travelling lightly. At all the shows that I've been to (and that's a lot), IMO he wouldn't be in the top 5 in a hack class though. Unfortunately, because he IS nice! #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[*rickie*]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma color=#c080ff size=4#ed_cl#Perfect...are you saying that in the pics that you posted, that the two hunter horses are NOT on the forehand?? and the one *Dressage type* horse is???#ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma color=#c080ff size=4#ed_cl##ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma color=#c080ff size=4#ed_cl#If so...I REALLY beg to differ. Yes, I agree that the 2 hunter horses are tracking up, but they are REALLY on the forehand. The *dressage type* is on the forehand just as much as the 1st Hunter, but now where near as much as hunter #2 (the paint).#ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma color=#c080ff size=4#ed_cl##ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma color=#c080ff size=4#ed_cl#I agree that to many the lower head set, might make it look more on the forehand, but the educated eye will know the difference.#ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma color=#c080ff size=4#ed_cl##ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma color=#c080ff size=4#ed_cl#As to this Long and Low only being for Hunters......In Dressage, don't forget the stretching circles.......they are all long and low, it shows that the horse is looking for contact....and there is a difference between looking for contact, and falling on ones face.....#ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma color=#c080ff size=4#ed_cl##ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma color=#c080ff size=4#ed_cl#But...these are just my opinions....and what I see!#ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[PerfectAngel]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#*rickie* - I realize that the paint is on the forehand, but honestly not as much as it appears. The reason that I say this is because I know the horse and have ridden him (not in that picture). He appears on the forehand, but is actually very light. He always travels like that, and if you point him at a jump (3'6"+) he has no trouble getting his shoulders up to jump it. If he were really on the forhand, he would not be able to jump like that. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#The dressage-type horse is very much on the forehand, he appears heavy and not forward-moving at all. He is a clunky-looking horse, so I would think he'd have a hard time really getting under himself, but he certainly isn't there. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#The first hunter is about even. He doesn't appear overy on the forehand, but not really moving from behind either. He does, however, appear light in the bridle, therefore balanced and not pulling on his rider (therefore not leaning onto the forehand) #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[BarnBratCSA]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I think that #1 is a nice moving hunter... however, I like the palomino (cant remember who posted it) more.  He did have some headset and was traveling correctly, using his hind end, and light on the forehand.  I beg to differ in the fact that he would not pin in the hack top 5.  I've seen/ridden in so many different "types" of hunter classes and I think he would pin well in any area, be in AQHA, local hunters, or "A"s.  Again, since I'm in The States, what I see may differ from whats true where you all are, but I think that of any pics posted, that one is probably traveling the most correctly, with the 1st pic of the three being a close second.  If someone could tell me how to post a pic here, I would show you all whatI think a nice hunter should look like. I'm not great with getting pics up, so if someone could PM me that would be great!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[PerfectAngel]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Well, I have showed quite a bit, but only in one area, so what I say/see is limited to the Québec chaudières/appalaches region. 3 years ago, the style there was a dressage-type frame, but has since "migrated" to the QH style hunter. SO, BarnBratCSA, obviously near you it's different, which I assumed, but didn't know how it's judged/what they're lookng for. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I find these "tidbits" useful, it means that there are more Hunter opportunities out there for horses that aren't the "typical QH hunter"!!!!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Shoal]

Hi guys

I know I'm really late on this discussion but I had some things to add.

I did hunter for 12 years until recently when I took up eventing. Since then I've learned the correct classical body position of dressage and it’s improved my knowledge and control EMENSLEY.

I think EVERY rider could use basic dressage training..........not just learning to ride because it’s what the judges are looking for.

I can say that looking at a hunter horse now just doesn't do it for me. They look flat, no real movement from behind and no use of a correct seat from the rider (Not all but alot I've seen). Remember that I did ride and love hunter for a very long time.

I use to be very stiff, leaning forward in my seat, with no concept of moving the horse forward to the bit from behind. I think the real problem we have is lack of correct coaching?! IMO.

Now I do agree with all you guys....it doesn't matter what type of riding you do, dressage or hunter, there are a lot of horses using their front end to drive them forward. I think this is because there's no real understanding on the riders part of what it feels like to make their horse use it's back end, and what it means to have them do this. Once again...coaching or lack of it.

Where have all the fundamentals gone????

Does anyone agree/disagree??

[Lehane]

#ed_op#A href="http://community.webshots.com/photo/290594168/301390303iTvyWo"#ed_cl#http://community.webshots.com/photo/290594168/301390303iTvyWo#ed_op#/A#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#BR#ed_cl##ed_op#BR#ed_cl#What do you guys think of this picture? Horse won the hack at the royal a couple years ago. Nice suspension.#ed_op#BR#ed_cl##ed_op#BR#ed_cl#Also from a lot of the hunter riders I know, they DO do dressage now. And o/f hunter classes aren't judged on whether your horse has a daisy cutter trot/movements - it's judged on the overall picture - smoothness, changes, equalness of strides, form over fences, etc. And it is subjective, so if you think you had a good round doesn't mean the judge thought you had a good round.#ed_op#BR#ed_cl##ed_op#BR#ed_cl#There was a judging seminar at the RCRA last month I believe. If people ever have questions about judging they should speak to a judge and find out how they can improve, if they want to show hunter.#ed_op#BR#ed_cl##ed_op#BR#ed_cl#That being said, I am an eventer And only show hunter schooling shows, if at all.  If ya don't like it, don't show it! #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Sodapoppers]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#i LIKE that horse Lehane. VERY pleasant picture at least from the angle taken. Nice head and eye on him !!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[*Giddy Up*]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I agree there are definitely some issues in the hunter ring. I've gone to A shows and seen a lot of hunter riders who just pose- I agree, it's not nice.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#However, just because one rides in a half seat doesn't mean they aren't using their legs. As well, even though the horse is going long and low, they are still supposed to be on contact. This is how I have been taught. The topline should be long and straight, however the horse should be slightly flexed at the poll and on the bit. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#My coach is a jumper herself, but teaches both hunter and jumper (I'm more hunter- nothing big, only schooling level- but that is what we are aiming for right now- Zippy has gorgeous movement). She teaches me to ride with legs and seat, and although I know I will have to show in the half seat, I jump in a full seat- my coach even told me that when trotting you should always sit trot to the fence, and whatever gait, you don't leave the tack until your horse leaves the ground.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#From the latest pictures posted, I like the headset from number one.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#SP- Your picture is nice, however in my opinion Dream doesn't appear to be on the bit. He should have his head tucked. If that look is the one you are talking about (nose to the air), I don't like it. Actually, in my area (keep in mind I've only done schooling shows) the horses I see place are ridden in a frame.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I also agree that it's up to the judge.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Oh, and I'm going to add my own part of the rant. I've noticed that in a lot of schooling shows that people go into the hunter classes galloping around like a jumper- and these are the horses who are placing, not the ones who move calmly. I don't get it. Nothing at all wrong with riding like a jumper, but do it in a jumper class!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Sodapoppers]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT color=#0060bf#ed_cl#GU - you're right, he's not on the bit We havn't gotten to that yet. The most i can get is the strech out, but i wouldn't consider his nose in the air. Actualy, the horses and riders who *always* place first, second and third in the classes (they are hubby, wife, and daughter!) we are in rides similar to how you describe and some other pictures posted here...low, tipped forward, or more bent at the poll. Dream and I always get 4th lol I can't say there are any horses there (i'm thinking of the one specific show series i attend) who i've seen ridden in a frame. I guess most of the riders just aren't at that level, or just don't bother to ask for it.#ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[WSR]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Hows this for a 'hunter' pic, ignore my equitation, It was horid back then., and ignore the tacky polos#ed_op#IMG src="http://forums.equestrianconnection.com/richedit/smileys/Shocked/6.gif"#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#P#ed_cl##ed_op#A href="http://community.webshots.com/photo/189357036/189357420YiDGYN"#ed_cl#http://community.webshots.com/photo/189357036/189357420YiDGYN#ed_op#/A#ed_cl##ed_op#/P#ed_cl##ed_op#P#ed_cl# #ed_op#/P#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#A href="http://community.webshots.com/photo/189357036/189357474RqGCvd"#ed_cl#http://community.webshots.com/photo/189357036/189357474RqGCvd#ed_op#/A#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Hunter is deffanitly based on the judges oppinion. I have placed in some classes that I should deffanitly not have placed in. One show my horse decided he really liked cantering in that ring that day and I couldnt stop him ( it was in a hack class) so I had to haul him up in a very non-unter down transition. And we still got a 5th out of 38 horses, and it was an A circuit show so the horses were all really decent, still amazed at how we pulled that one off#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#As for the ' hunters never sitting on there but and useing there legs' thing. I train with an amazeing coach and we spend just as much time sitting on our horses backs while schooling as any dressage rider would. But when we go to the show ring(unless were in an eq. division) we ride in a lighter seat(still useing leg) because the objective of the show is to show your horse off. But if your horse goes better when your sitting down,then thats what the rider does.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[PerfectAngel]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I agree,WSR, that is a nice hunter....that's a lot like what I saw in Quebec, but now it's changed to the low(er) headset style. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[BarnBratCSA]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Lehane, I can't agree with you more on what you said! That's pretty much the point I've been trying to make.  I also agree with the last statement - if you dont like it, dont show!!  I think that the gray (white) horse posted is a great mover - very correct, coming under himself from behind, on the bit, but fairly level in the topline - a NICE hunter... that's what they're looking for, and there's nothing wrong with that.  If you dont like the way that a hunter is supposed to go, maybe you shouldnt do hunters.  Everything in the horse world changes so fast. For example, I remember when chopping tails off just below the hocks was the "in" look...a jumper trainer around here went into his barn and cut all the tails so they "Fit in".... now, long thick flowing tails are in....everything is like that, keep that in mind #ed_op#IMG src="http://forums.equestrianconnection.com/richedit/smileys//wink.gif"#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Lehane]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#It's so true. So many "fads". I just laugh at them all, as I'm not really a serious competitor at all. But that grey horse is GORGEOUS. Love it. Most of the hunters I saw at the royal went like that (although a lot of them bent to the OUTSIDE going around turns, drove me nuts). #ed_op#BR#ed_cl##ed_op#BR#ed_cl#I'll stick with my schooling shows o/f...no flat, since my borrowed horse apparently doesn't like flat classes hehe.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#