Going from Hunter to Jumper

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Going from Hunter to Jumper

Postby Clio » Wed May 18, 2005 5:47 pm

There's something I've been curious about for a while.  I've
beenfocusing on jumper for the past year (I never really got
intohunter--my mare is a Morgan with lots of knee action and they're
notexactly your typical hunter-type.  Plus, I just like
theexcitement of jumper).  But, I was originally taught by
enoughhunter coaches that my new jumper coach had to change my seat
entirelywhen I started with her; I had to lose the hunter "forward
angle" whileposting and the half seat canter was immediately tossed out
thewindow.  I appreciate the change in my position now; I've
foundthat sitting back and getting my horse's butt under her is
essentialwhen making tight turns or jumping tricky lines.  But
here is ismy question: I know that a lot of hunters will often switch
back andforth between hunter and jumper--for those of you who do, do
you changeyour riding style?  Do you work on both when schooling,
or do youride "hunter-like" for both disciplines?
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Postby Clio » Wed May 18, 2005 5:50 pm

And okay, why are all my words running together when I post
something?  Is it a browser problem, or something?  Can
anyone help?
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Postby *Giddy Up* » Wed May 18, 2005 8:43 pm

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#As for you words running together- no idea. Perhaps you could PM Kerri (the moderator) and ask her if anything is up with your account, or if she could fix it.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#As for you original question, I'm more of a hunter, so I can only partially comment, however, when I train, I ride in both seats. I think both seats are very important and a rider should know how to do both. Generally though I stick to a full seat and only really go into the half seat when I'm preparing to show. I feel like I have more security with the full, and I also do alot of flatwork with my horse, more flatwork than jumping, so I like to work in a full seat for that purpose.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby ~BreezieStorm~ » Wed May 18, 2005 9:13 pm

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#As a Hunter rider for many years and now a coach I have never rode in the half seat I will never ride in the half seat and nothing bugs me more then riders who perch.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I have had many jugdes come up to me and comment on how they like my style of the full seat riding and how great my students look.  I have never ever had a student place lower then third.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#One of the main aids in riding is your seat you can ask everything from stoping to gallop just in the pressure of your seat so why would you perch and throw away that great aid.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby Mystic » Thu May 19, 2005 7:44 am

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Breezie, there is a difference between a true half seat and a perch. The perched rider is very obvious to someone who knows what to look for. (And for the record my half seat is not a perch)#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#As for someone who's gone from showing hunters to showing jumpers I use a combination of both seats. I did a clinic recently with a jumper coach who shows on the Grand Prix circuit and he had me ride the entire time in half seat, telling me I was too active in the body but what he doesn't realize is that my mare is dressage trained so she responds to my seat more than my legs. I find that sitting down and using my seat in the corners to rock my girl back on her hind end helps steady her and helps make the tighter turns and then I will get up off her back if there is a galloping section or through a combination. I can't stay in half seat for the whole trip or my mare gets flat and strung out and that's when she'll start taking rails and can't make the turns. Also in the jumpers you need to make way more adjustments to your pace and striding etc than you do in the hunters so being able to sit down and rock your horse back are much more important in a good jumper ride than just being in half seat.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#My suggestion would be to incorporate both styles into your own way of riding.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby Clio » Thu May 19, 2005 8:31 am

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Exactly, Mystic--mine too will get strung out and flat if I don't "keep my seat on".  Plus I find I can use my legs much more from this position; I tried the half seat again recently (now that I've mastered the full, we're bringing back the half for galloping and combos), but man, I've got no leg power!  I assume that that's just muscle build-up, though--must be different muscles from that position.  But the other thing I've been curious about (I ride at a barn where everyone else is hunter--I'm the only jumper, so I've been taking a very close look at the difference in styles), is the actual jumping position itself.  Hunters seem to almost "hug" the horse's neck when jumping, which I assume is fine in a hunter course when you've got lots of time between jumps.  But if I were to try that, my girl would become so top heavy that I'd be afraid that we'd go a$$ over tea kettle, plus I would waste precious time pulling her back up after the jump and preparing her for what comes next.  Again, how do hunters ride jumper courses without having an accident?  The riding styles seem so fundamentally different that I'm always surprised when I hear that they went to a jumper show for fun and pinned (or, in some cases, did a series and won Champion).  Not that I don't believe they can ride well; I guess it comes back down to my original question: Hunters!  Do you change your riding and jumping styles when you do a jumper division?#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby Mystic » Thu May 19, 2005 9:09 am

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Clio, you also have to remember that most hunters are sought for their quiet temperment which means that they don't necessarily have the same fight in them as a jumper so they don't really question when it comes to doing turns and stuff. I've also found that most hunters do tend to go around on their forehand so when it comes to doing the tight turns they just drop their shoulder and make the turn that way. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#If you sit and watch a jumper division you can usually pick out the people that actually ride jumper all the time from the ones that switch between the two. The riders who switch between the two usually ride the jumpers the same way they ride their hunters - in half seat. People that tend to ride jumper all the time tend to ride in both half and full seat depending on what the course is asking. You also have to remember that there are other factors as to why a hunter horse placed in the jumpers. How many entries were there? What was the course like? How many rails came down? How many run outs? How many people fell off? All of these play a role in who places in the jumpers. In the jumpers it's not how nice you look over the course, it's did you go clean in the time allowed.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby Embiem3 » Thu May 19, 2005 10:04 am

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#SPAN class=name#ed_cl##ed_op#A name=""#ed_cl##ed_op#/A#ed_cl##ed_op#B#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT size=2#ed_cl#~BreezieStorm~--#ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/B#ed_cl##ed_op#/SPAN#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I have been to many 'A' shows and watched many of their hunter classes go, and 95% of the time, the rider who won, was in a half seat. You only do the half seat,once your horse is going properly,and doesnt need you to be constantly getting after them and makeing them do what you want. But IMO, unless your at that point,where you can do the half seat and half your horse go prefectly, you shouldnt be showing. My coach is very respected on the 'A's and teaches his students both the half seat and the 'full seat', and teaches his riders to use both positions effectivly. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#SPAN class=name#ed_cl##ed_op#A name=""#ed_cl##ed_op#/A#ed_cl##ed_op#B#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT size=2#ed_cl#Clio--#ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/B#ed_cl##ed_op#/SPAN#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#SPAN class=name#ed_cl#I did eventing for about 6 years aswell as a bit of jumper before I did hunter and my horse was a Section 2 jumper before I got him. It was and it wasnt a big change. Position wise, I didnt find that much of a change. Mentality wise, it was a big change. Eventing and jumper you ride more agressivly then you would in the Hunter ring. For hunters, you have to do a million things at once and not let anyone know your doing anything at all. Thats why the best comment to get while showing hunter is ' that rider doesnt do anything at all,the horse just does it all for her'.#ed_op#/SPAN#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby Clio » Thu May 19, 2005 10:53 am

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Yes, I have always admired Hunters for their way of going--very quietly and effectively and am trying to bring that to my own riding (I can get a little, shall we say, enthusiastic?).  I was recently grooming for a friend at the Dreamcrest short course, and was very impressed with how the members of Ian Roberts' team, although still riding three point, sat so very still in the saddle and rode beautifully.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#It would also make far more sense to me to teach both the half seat and the full; I guess I just haven't seen many coaches in my short riding experience (started only 5 years ago) who taught both.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby *Giddy Up* » Fri May 20, 2005 8:51 pm

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Yes, I will point out there is a difference between a half seat and a perch- in the half seat you do, and should still use your seat, but you lighten it. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Even though I have never shown in a *proper* jumper course, I will say that I can't imagine why you wouldn't adapt your style. In a hunter course, it's all about long lines, where as in a jumper course, they lines are shorter and the turns are tighter. Hunter and jumper are set up to show off two different styles of jumping- so why wouldn't you show off your different styles as well. I would expect a jumper to sit more, where as a hunter has more time to half seat- especially since the idea of hunter is to show off you and your horses movement.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby xena_n_joss » Wed May 25, 2005 6:29 am

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#haha I know nothing about hunter really, but from what I kind of know, is that for hunter the riders are concentrating on looking good at a nice even pace, switching all the leads perfectly and basically making the hunter course look like a piece of cake. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#For hunter and jumper I personaly do ot think that there is "that" much of a difference. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Because for jumper you want your horse to be steady and everything too, I think you just go a bit more "forward", not neccessarily a ton faster..  But even so, you shouldn't be galloping around a jumper course, the riders who do it that fast are not doing it correctly. Because if you go to fast you put your horse on the forehand and they will jump too flat. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Jumper is also about the corners and tight turns that you have to do... hunter is more around the outside and a couple diagonal jumps I believe (sorry if im off mark,,,, haha)#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I think that the position many jumpers ride is just to have a secure leg and allow the horse freedom up front to jump easily. And theres not as much pressure for jumper to look great while your doing it because your not being judged on looks. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#and dont get me wrong, you do have more speed in jumper, but i think the speed is more the way a jumper horse goes naturally anyways... rather than the way a hunter horse would go naturally. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby Mystic » Wed May 25, 2005 7:40 am

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Xena's right to an extent. I was at a hunter/jumper show on the weekend showing my girl in the jumpers and it was very obvious which riders spent more time in the hunters than the jumpers. Granted they did place because like Xena said, they galloped around like lunatics, their horses on the forehand etc. But all you had to do was watch the very first round to know who was a hunter rider and who was a jumper rider since there was one end of the arena where there was like 40 feet between the jumps and the surrounding fence and all the hunter riders rode out along the fence line in big sweeping turns only to finish and discover that even though they had a clean round they didn't make the jump off because they were over the time allowed. My mom who was with me at the show told me that when I was on course the person on deck was told by her coach not to ride the course like I was because I was riding it like a jump off course and yet my mare actually made it to the jump off and hers did not because I rode it like a jumper course and came within the time allowed.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#There is also a difference in a jumper horse as opposed to a hunter horse. Most hunters are quiet and laid back where as there is a certain amount of fight to a jumper horse. Hunters tend to lope around their courses whereas jumpers carry you to the fence in a more determined manner. Also like Xena said, a jumper needs to be able to do the tight rollback turns as well as more awkward and unorthodox turns than a hunter. Hunters do have to do rollback turns in their equitation classes but those are generally big sweeping turns around other jumps while a jumper needs to be able to make the rollback turn on the inside of the other jumps.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby xena_n_joss » Wed May 25, 2005 10:24 am

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#hehe I guess im lucky, Xena has a big stride and for the initial round I never have to waste her speed to be in time, mabey I do it also to make sure she gets around good because shes young... who knows....    : )  ..... then I can save it for the jump off. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#But really, like I said, theres going nice and forward and then like Mystic said theres going around like a lunatic... haha.... But I guess sometimes going around like a lunatic can work out. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Now... try the jumper medal class.... thats a WHOLE different story.. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby Mystic » Wed May 25, 2005 10:45 am

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#My mare would be able to handle the jumper medal easily. She's dressage trained so she can handle the flatwork that's asked of her and she loves to jump and can easily clear 4'#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby Clio » Wed May 25, 2005 3:22 pm

I was grooming at the same show, Mystic (congrats on your ribbons, by
the way--I'm afraid I don't know which one you were, but it sounds like
you and your girl did amazingly well!), and what I saw in the Jumper
ring was at times quite scary, even for 2'3"-2'6".  I, too, could
tell who the riders who normally did Jumper and those who normally did
Hunter were, but from their seat, not because they were over time
allowed (I wasn't paying that close attention to that detail...). 
Luckily there were few accidents, but I think that was just a product
of the lack of height more than anything else.  I was so alarmed
to see people racing around at crazy speeds in a hunt seat, especially
around those rollbacks or through tight lines, often with long, long
reins to boot!  Their horses did go flat, as Xena said, and there
was no bascule over the jump, which is so hard on a horse's knees when
they land.  If any of those horses had refused, those people would
have come right off, and many horses were extremely unbalanced around
the turns, on the forehand with no rein support for their
shoulders.  #ed_op#br#ed_cl#
#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
But Xena is definitely right about one similarity between Hunter and
Jumper; you still need to approach the jumps in a similar
manner--steady and straight.  I've always been taught to ride a
Jumper course with the mentality of a Hunter: sane and careful with
good lines, and to save the crazy angles and really tight turns for the
jump-off (*if* your horse can handle them, that is...)  #ed_op#br#ed_cl#
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Postby Mystic » Wed May 25, 2005 3:30 pm

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Clio, my girl was the big black mare by the name of Lady Ebony. She had a sparkly browband and 4 green polos on over 4 white socks. I'll post the link to the photos when they're up on the photographer's site. I'll be at the one in June if you're grooming again. I'll be in the 2'3-2'6 jumpers.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Another reason you don't want you horse going all out and flat is because when they're flat they can't get you out of sticky situations. I got in real deep to my second last fence in the last class but because my girl goes round and I was not hanging off her neck she managed to get over the fence without issue, tapping it slightly on her way over but it stayed up. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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