Color Question

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Color Question

Postby shady222 » Sun Jun 12, 2005 1:17 am

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#ok i bought a yearling, he's now shedding out black, does that mean he will stay black? my friend thinks he will grey out but as far as i know he has no grey in his lines. His mom is a chestnut and white paint and dads a blue roan. He was born a mousy grey color and i have been told when a horse is born grey they cant return to there birth color, is that true or just a wives tail? What color do you think he will end up? He was a dark brown in the winter and is shedding out black.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby 2dapoint » Sun Jun 12, 2005 5:28 am

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#The simple answer here is contained within your own information.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Are either of his parents grey?  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#If not (and you already say no) then no, he can't be grey.  Period.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Grey is a dominant gene, it is either there or it isn't.  If neither parent had it to pass along - then he couldn't have gotten it.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#If they did have it to pass on, then they would have to have shown it - it can't be hidden (like say, chestnut - which is recessive)#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby shady222 » Sun Jun 12, 2005 11:16 pm

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#thanks, now i feel stupid...lol dont feel bad but i learnt something :)#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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colour

Postby Hope03 » Wed Oct 05, 2005 3:19 pm

Can you help me explain why my mare turned out to be a palomino when her sire was a black and white paint and her dam was a flea bitten grey arab/percheron. She was born cream and she does turn cream in the winter but a palomino with dapples in the summer. I am not complaining though! lol I had been going to that farm for several years and the babies were either grey, or black and white. How did she become so different? Thank in advance
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Postby Ruth » Wed Oct 05, 2005 4:57 pm

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Well, that is just truly bizarre. I thought that one parent had to be palomino in order to get a palomino. If you really want to know, post your question on the Equine Reproduction board, they have a forum for equine genetics, and a lot of color breeders post there.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby goldendryad » Wed Oct 05, 2005 7:53 pm

Maybe the stud isn't actually a true black and white paint but a "smoky
black" which is a result of the dilute gene which is what causes
palaminos and buckskins. The dam might have been a chestnut before she
turned grey, hence the palamino colour. Or maybe some other stud got to
the mare before the black and white paint did the job. It's been known
to happen. Sometimes even a really young intact male can get the job
done.#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
You can get a palamino by crossing a chestnut to a palamino/buckskin/smoky black.#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
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my girl

Postby Hope03 » Wed Oct 05, 2005 10:00 pm

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Well, I am pretty sure her dam was born black.  Her sire was a true black and white pinto and usually only threw black and whites although some of the pinto ponies had chestnut and white babies from the mares that were chestnut and white.  Nope he was the only stallion in the field.  It was a herd of horses about 15 and they were just in 100 acres with no other contact. And no colts were kept in the field passed weaning time and the mares were too tall for the little guys.  She is definately an odd ball.  If you take a look at my website you can see her on the mare page along with her half sister (same sire) #ed_op#A href="http://www.freewebs.com/motstables"#ed_cl#www.freewebs.com/motstables#ed_op#/A#ed_cl# It will be interesting to see what colour her baby is off of the dark brown percheron stallion.  It just seems weird to bme that Arab and Percherons rarely have palomino colouring and I am guessing paints and pintos don't always have them either lol my girl totally defeated the odds in that department.  I loved all the sires babies but he unfortunately died in a barn fire and the herd was sold off. :(  But I have two gorgeous babies from him.            #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby goldendryad » Wed Oct 05, 2005 11:57 pm

Hmmm....maybe they got it wrong and the dam wasn't Arabian/percheron
but something else...that can happen too. Was the dam a PMU? #ed_op#br#ed_cl#
#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
Your mare (the palamino) is very strange. Sine there are no palaminos
that are percherons or Arabians and if the sire is what you said he's
obviously not smoky black. What is apparent is that she got the creme
gene from somewhere. The creme gene is what causes
palaminos/buckskins/smoky blacks.#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
She looks rather fine to be 1/4 percheron, to me. Maybe there was a mix
up and her dam was an Arabian/QH or Arabian/QH/percheron?#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
I used to have a neighbour with a papered QH gelding that everyone
thought was half percheron. But then QH's have percheron blood in them
(...and Thoroughbred, and Morgan and pony and mustang....). #ed_op#br#ed_cl#
#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
Maybe a neighbours stud hopped the fence, did the job and left? That's happened to people I know before.#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
But who cares about breed, she's a very pretty girl anyway! What colour are the babies she has off of what colour/breed stud?#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
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babies

Postby Hope03 » Thu Oct 06, 2005 1:03 am

This is her first baby! We tried with 4 other stallions but she didn't show regluar heat cycles and didn't like the other boys. Don't worry I did get her checked out by the vet and she is sound for breeding. I have a picture of their dams but it will be awhile to get it onto the computer because I don't have a scanner. They were big though! The dams were around 16hh+ and the sire was about 14.2hh. No they weren't PMU babies that I know of. The man that owned them has recently died but he had known his horses pretty well and gave us information. But oh well, I can deal with the pretty girl lol. I just thought it was kind of strange.
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Postby Kaleena » Thu Oct 06, 2005 7:46 am

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#<---- Cirrus' dam is a bay and her sire is black, its possible.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Her sire is definitely black, but he isn't homozygous and he carries a recesive cream gene that he inherited from his dam who was a buckskin. Her dam, the bay, carries the chestnut gene from her sire. As luck would have it Cirrus got both the chestnut gene from her dam and the cream gene from her sire thus making her a palomino. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#You need to be able to look back a few generations to really figure your girl out but the dam could easily be a chestnut turned grey and the sire carrying the cream gene.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Re: Color Question

Postby *rickie* » Thu Oct 06, 2005 8:31 pm

shady222 wrote:#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#ok i bought a yearling, he's now shedding out black, does that mean he will stay black? my friend thinks he will grey out but as far as i know he has no grey in his lines. His mom is a chestnut and white paint and dads a blue roan. He was born a mousy grey color and i have been told when a horse is born grey they cant return to there birth color, is that true or just a wives tail? What color do you think he will end up? He was a dark brown in the winter and is shedding out black.
#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#P#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT face=Tahoma color=#c080ff size=4#ed_cl#Shady, does your yearling have black (or Darker) points??? I'm asking as what you are describing is just like my QH Blue, who is in-deed a Blue roan. Every winter he turns VERY dark (almost black, but does retain a few *grey* hairs) and in the spring he will change to a very light grey, and then go darker and darker until his body returns to the *mouse grey* color, and then he starts to shed black again. Of coarse he keep his black points.......does this sound like what you're guy is doing?? If you want pictures of my Blue, let me know, I can direct you to some, and you can see if it's similar.#ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/P#ed_cl##ed_op#P#ed_cl# #ed_op#/P#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby 2dapoint » Sat Oct 08, 2005 8:54 am

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Well, since we're now getting into the *mis*information portion...#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#IF you have a creme gene - it HAS to show.  It canNOT be recessive.  Period.  ONE parent has got to be (every single time!!!) carrying a creme to get a baby that shows as either palomino or buckskin.  Can't happen any other way.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#The most likely scenario is that one of those black parents is hiding a creme gene (meaning they look black but genetically are smokey black). One instance where the gene fools the eye and leads one to believe that there is a recessive gene.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Arabians most certainly DO carry the creme gene!! you CAN AND DO have palomino Arabians - a lot!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Percherons... probably not (there was a rumour at one time that said they could *only* be black, no other colours - although that does leave grey out there... hmmm)#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#So, for your baby, I'd suggest that the dam is carrying a creme gene that makes her (if she's black as you say and I'm not getting confused here) a smokey black.  Bred to ANYthing then, you'd have a 50% chance of having that creme gene passed on.  So saying that she's been bred to "whomever" "however many" times and never produced one before means... squat.    Genes don't care about percentages - each combination is a crap shoot itself.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#If you're that curious, get them (the parents) tested.  UC Davis does it (by pulling hair roots and sending them in - pretty simple stuff) for about 50$.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Just anecdotal (I'm sure that True Colours may pop in here to add some advice/information at some point) a cremello baby popped out of 2 BLACK Tbs at one point!  This lead to some genetic testing (IS the foal really by the right stallion etc etc.) and turns out that both parents were hiding the creme gene by being smokey black and no one noticed.  And, as luck would have it, this baby got 2 copies of the creme gene (and, from the sounds of it, 2 chestnuts too). This being something that seemed to have come down through several generations...  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#So, if you've got a palomino or buckskin - one of the parents MUST be palomino or buckskin  - carrying the creme gene.  I'd suggest Kaleena? that since the sire is NOT homozygous black, he's carrying the creme gene and is actually what is considered "smokey black" - but that is different from the gene being recessive.  It IS being expressed - but no one can tell.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Roan, now that's different again.  If it's there, it's expressed.  Very few other genetic combinations could ALSO be expressed that may hide it - early greying being on of them.  But I digress...#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Now chestnut - THAT is recessive.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Anyone want a discussion on what recessive is or isn't?#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby zooka » Sat Oct 08, 2005 11:45 am

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I do not know how colour works but I know that 1 grey and a liver chestnut can produce a dark bay....  Who was thought grey at first but has turned out not to be.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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colour

Postby Hope03 » Sat Oct 08, 2005 12:14 pm

I don't know who some of the comments were directed at but if they were at me I will try to clear some things up. I never said that arabs don't have palominos, I just said rarely, meaning not all the time. Of course they do have them. Percherons- I have yet to hear of one but they might. I would take a sample of their mane and tail but both of them have passed away. I think some people are getting to worked up about this and I want to make clear that I am not trying to start a fight. I was told the dam was born black and went grey the father was a pinto that was true black and white. I was just telling what I have been told.
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Postby Ruth » Sat Oct 08, 2005 12:20 pm

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Zooka - I have a bay foal from grey and liver chestnut parents. Here's why - greys have a "base" color, either bay or black. My mare's sire was grey, but born bay so that is why she is bay, not grey or chestnut.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Percherons only come in black or grey. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Here's one for you. Do Standardbreds come in any other colors than grey, bay or black? I've never seen a chestnut STB, so I'm curious.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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colour

Postby Hope03 » Sat Oct 08, 2005 1:20 pm

From every book I have read it says Percherons typically come in black or grey, or usually come in black and grey. Therefore there is room for different colours in there. A colour horse could have been thrown in a long time ago in the genes. I was reading about the genes of the TB stallion I own and he had a new forest pony and and arab in his genes a long time ago I thought that was pretty neat. My percheron stallion has brown around his nose which I was told would be considered a brown instead of a black.
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Standardbreds

Postby Hope03 » Sat Oct 08, 2005 1:24 pm

Yes, standardbreds come in chestnut. I usually only see the bays and greys, but I have seen a chestnut one at the track.
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Postby Rio Roulette » Sun Oct 09, 2005 6:30 am

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I used to work with standardbreds when I was living in Montreal, and yes, they can be chestnut.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby Ruth » Sun Oct 09, 2005 1:17 pm

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#OK, I was curious. I've never seen one, either live or on TV.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby Trufflemaker » Tue Oct 18, 2005 9:31 pm

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#There is a great website, #ed_op#A href="http://www.equinecolor.com"#ed_cl#www.equinecolor.com#ed_op#/A#ed_cl#, that discusses the genetics of colour, for anyone who is interested in further reading.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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