Cloning Your Opinions?

[Andy]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Is This going to be the future of the industry?#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I came across this artical when researching our new mares pedigree:#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#A href="http://www.cryozootech.com/index.php?m=the_horses&d=pieraz_st_en&l=en"#ed_cl#http://www.cryozootech.com/index.php?m=the_horses&d=pieraz_st_en&l=en#ed_op#/A#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#She has some of the same famous Arabian names in her pedigree:#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#A href="http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/index.php?query_type=horse&horse=RL+APRIL&g=5&cellpadding=0&small_font=1&l"#ed_cl#http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/index.php?query_type=horse&horse=RL+APRIL&g=5&cellpadding=0&small_font=1&l#ed_op#/A#ed_cl#=#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[zooka]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I do nto agree with cloning.  Why mess with the diversity nature gives us?  I understand using stem cells to help fix what is already on the earth but why create a new being artificially.  I think in years to come science wil discover something that will prove that cloning interferes with the way the world works.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#If any of that makes sense...  In my head I know what I think but it is very hard to type it!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[shady222]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#why clone when there are soo many horses that need saving, that are already alive and breathing!?#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Andy]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#The cloning issue is not about saving or breeding persay but about taking the best of the best and mirroring it exactly to maintaint a known #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#champion.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Question is, is a champion created by pure genetics or does enviorment #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#play a significant roll ?#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#If you have the no. 1 horse say a record breaking triple crown winning Thoutoughbred  is it right to keep on cloning it. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[2dapoint]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Let's just take this out of the realm of science fiction and point out that we've been having clones for years - naturally.  And... many of those clones do NOT perform nearly so well as the famous TWIN.  When you have identical twins - you have an exact replica of genetic matter (one reason why they are so sought after, in any species, for studying).#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#How do I feel about it?  hmm... I see lots of problems, but I can see a few benefits too... #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#"if" Big Ben were cloned, strictly for breeding purposes - anyone here want to turn down a chance to own a foal that is, to all intents and purposes, by him? (rather by his clone/twin)#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#How about returning Northern Dancer to the breeding shed?#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Heck, the dressage world has lost quite a few VERY nice horses lately - anyone turn down the chance for a few more years of those sires passing along the genes?#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Most assuredly, there is that infinitesimal *something* that makes a true champion.  That cannot be replicated.  That isn't contained within the genetic material.  Often referred to as "heart" or "try" or even "brilliance".  Whatever it is - THAT (to my mind) is the difference between the clone and the real thing.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I do, of course, have concerns that this may be a Pandora's Box... that years (or generations) down the road, we will find out that there IS a caveat - and it will be a little late... #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Megan Ball]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#what i REALLY REALLY REALLY CANNOT understand is why are we cloning animals( because we as a human species are cloning animals) that are not endangered or rare?????? why not start cloning pandas instead of MULES( not that there is anything wrong with mules...but mules are common and often unwanted) or how about rhinos? or tigers? or anyother animal that is in serious trouble of becoming extinct! sorry I'm on a rant here, but cloning someones pet or grand champion just doesn't make sense, when an entire species is going down the tubes( thanks to us) and they can be saved!JMO#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[zooka]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#For sure some talent comes from genetics but training and environment play a big part in how a top performance horse turns out!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[2dapoint]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Of COURSE environment (training etc.) plays a huge part.  But tell the buyers at... say... Keeneland that genetics is "only" a small part.  When they are paying upwards of a 1/4 or 1/2 million dollars for a yearling! you #ed_op#STRONG#ed_cl##ed_op#EM#ed_cl#have #ed_op#/EM#ed_cl##ed_op#/STRONG#ed_cl#to#ed_op#EM#ed_cl# #ed_op#/EM#ed_cl#figure that genetics is believed to carry an awful lot of weight in their opinion.  Until that horse is well begun on his/her career - you're gambling on genetics! (any career here, not just racing)#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Why not apply cloning to any other species - such as those endangered?  They'd be a lot more endangered!  It often takes as many as 250 or MORE attempts to get ONE viable embryo!  So, Pandas (coming to mind) that don't deal well with AI (but, with precautions are more apt to conceive that way than naturally) are certainly not worth risking on a tricky procedure with a less than perfect track record - one that will deplete the available ova.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#My understanding (someone jump in here if I'm wrong) is that cats (the entire family) are NOT good candidates for AI to begin with.  Something about ovulation only being triggered by the pain of penis removal after intromission?  So, harvesting ova in either would be fruitless at best, dangerous and depleting the genepool at worst.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I know we're not speaking about AI, but in cloning, you must begin with at least the ova - the scale of difficulty being AI (easiest to accomplish), invitro fertilization(bringing in embryo transfer technologies from there), then cloning.  If you can't do the first, you sure can't get to the last!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I'll agree that for the millions spent in research on this ... there are better places to spend money!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[Sodapoppers]

I don't know....I wouldn't mind having a Re-Pet lol I've often though about...if it's available...cloning Dream after his time comes. It would be interesting to have him from a foal and to raise him differently and properly.
I don't know if there's a 'right' or a 'wrong' to this equation - just a different set of views and values. I wouldn't mind being able to clone my pets though.

[goldendryad]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I believe animals have souls and unique personalities...something inherent beyond DNA and environment. Just like people do.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#So I don't think you could get a true "clone". You would get a genetic clone, yes, but not a clone of the individual. You could never repeat the environment, and I don't believe you can replicate the soul/essence of the individuality.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I remember reading about a cloned cat, she was nothing like her mother in either looks or attitude.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#That foal looks bay to me, in Andy's post. His original is a grey. I know he could fade, but I just wouldn't buy into it.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I would never clone. The new animal is always a challenge and delight.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#And you can't ride a set of papers. You ride an individual, you ride what you make of it.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Other than money, I see no value in this type of cloning. There are much more meaningful things to be spending research money on.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[royall]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#The cloning that is referred to her has nothing to do with cloning the specific horse but creating the ability to breed to the specific horse. Meaning I am producing a sperm factory as the original was gelded. That's all. It is the same as if I breed to the original animal.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I have researched the info on this site and the site in particular and come up with a lot of reservations. Not to the technicality or moral legality of cloning per se but the way this is presented.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#This is a VERY expensive enterprise. They are looking for investors giving them one breeding a year for the life of the animal. Clones age rapidly - see sheep in Guelph. I could be breeding duds as you breed to at least 5 if not more generations before and really never to the animal in question. This clone is not a proven breeder as there is not get to judge by. The so far cloned offsprings are described for instance of having 3 white socks. For the money one would spend the colour of any sock is really the least important info.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I can maybe understand cloning a proven stud with an impressive list of offsprings with top achievements. This is not the case in either one of the four clones here. They are all cloned from geldings. Vice Regent - one of the top TB studs had life earnings of $ 1200.00 and was a super stud. His full brother earned millions and could not produce anything.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Something on this whole story and the website just does not look and sound right. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#The cloning people or the owners of the clone actually want to present the offspring at the studbook inspection. The clones origin is kept secret so far. I cannot see a stud inspection committee burning their fingers in admitting the clone as a "recommended" stud which is what the admittance really means.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#The one mentioned bay foal has a black tail and is cloned from a Palomino or fleabitten (hard to see) with a white tail. I am not saying things are not possible. It is just presented in a way that raises red flags for me all over.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Lets assume Donnerhall could be cloned. I am sure a lot of people might have an interest in breeding to him. How many paid breedings for how much money does it take to make money or even cover the cost of the cloning? The only industry I can see even beeing vaguely capable to offset the money issue is TB racing if one of the top producers could be cloned and so far the TB industry does not even accept AI.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I am interested how this develops. A lot of now accepted ideas were rejected in their beginning. As I said before: the technicality is intrigueing just not the way this particular case scenario sounds and looks.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[2dapoint]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I'm trying really hard, but I just cannot follow what you are trying to say?#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#The foal is bay.  The horse he was cloned from is a fleabitten grey.  Where is the issue?  Foal greys out over time - same colour as was expected.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Or are you referring to not breeding to the foal as its genetic heritage is unproven (donor was a gelding).  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Let's use another example then.  How many Warmblood mares are bred first, used for performance AFTER?#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#You keep referring to horses like ... Donnerhall.  Although a wonderful horse, his stud fees still did not approximate (even closely) those of stallions in many other industries.  You mention that the horse the foal was cloned from - an endurance champion, was unproven in the breeding shed.  Well... now that's pointing out the obvious.  You have concerns over this.  Valid.  But - this horse also has a pedigree of VERY proven performance horses I believe.  MANY stallions that are standing are unproven in the breeding shed until 3 or even 4 seasons have passed (often many more).  So, their fees are offered at a lowered premium to get foals on the ground.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#The premature aging.  Was a cellular function. Didn't mean that she became a little old sheep dragging her legs around. Yes, it occured. The mitochondrial DNA contained within the harvested/donor egg controlled her cellular division rates to quite an extent. Yes, Dolly died of old age at approximately 1/2 of her expected lifespan.  I *think* the people behind this have learned these things too and have probably compensated for them. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Just a wild theory of mine!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#For a breeding stallion, with sperm previously unavailable , you can BET he'll be bred to the teeth (as often as he'll co-operate and donate) and frozen!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#This isn't about getting a performance horse back into the ring/trail or track to replace a now dead hero.  This is about the opportunity to pass along genetics of animals that were castrated before becoming champions.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Would they have become those champions if they had never been cut?  Who knows?  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#That, to me, comes down to the debate of temperament (here is your nature vs. nurture argument) - and anyone breeding to them should bear it in mind.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#IF it goes that far.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[xena_n_joss]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#what would be the point of competition though if the horses were just being cloned? #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Its a stupid idea and it would mess up the entire breeding industry.. There would be no point in breeding or competing, the fun of it would be gone and people would uickly lose interest in horses.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[xena_n_joss]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#and do you really want to see big ben be the greatest jumper all over again? He's history and people take interest and joy in reliving his moments through movies and books. If cloning does happen than this will be lost as well. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[2dapoint]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#sorry to pick at one person, but xena, read for comprehension! they don't want to return the horse to the career at which the donor excelled (there is no more guarantee that they'd be successful than with a twin, and that has often failed miserably), only to be able to use them as a sire since the original was gelded before becoming such a champion!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Still not saying whether I agree or disagree, just pointing out arguments a points for and against.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Carry on folks #ed_op#IMG src="http://forums.equestrianconnection.com/richedit/smileys//smiley16.gif"#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[xena_n_joss]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#yes, but still, if cloning became so common like that you would unfortunately have greedy people who would decide to compete with the horses. Any jerk with money could easily take advantage of something like that.  Unless it was made illegal. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#

[2dapoint]

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#lol#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Any jerk with money had better have a LOT of money!  And even then at 250 tries per viable ovum.. a lot of patience too!  AND, again, just getting the animal alive and on the ground only means you have, in essence, a twin of the donor.  How many twins do we know of (many are born) that have the same record of performance as one outstanding individual?#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Just staying logical and leaving scary emotions aside here... #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#