Does size matter and does it pass on???

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Does size matter and does it pass on???

Postby TrueColours » Sun Oct 16, 2005 8:17 am

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#P style="MARGIN: 0px"#ed_cl#Here is a question for all of you. MOST people want over 16hh. MOST people wont look at a stallion that is under 16hh or breed a mare that is under 16hh (and I am talking hunter/jumper/dressage breeding here and not Quarter Horses, Paints, Arabians, etc).#ed_op#/P#ed_cl##ed_op#P style="MARGIN: 0px"#ed_cl# #ed_op#/P#ed_cl##ed_op#P style="MARGIN: 0px"#ed_cl#16hh seems to be the ***Magic Number*** that everyone just HAS to have.#ed_op#/P#ed_cl##ed_op#P style="MARGIN: 0px"#ed_cl##ed_op#BR#ed_cl#What about bigger? I mean - W-A-Y #ed_op#IMG alt="" src="http://www.horsegroomingsupplies.com/horse_forum/eek.gif" border=0 smilieid="10"#ed_cl# #ed_op#IMG alt="" src="http://www.horsegroomingsupplies.com/horse_forum/eek.gif" border=0 smilieid="10"#ed_cl#  BIGGER!#ed_op#/P#ed_cl##ed_op#P style="MARGIN: 0px"#ed_cl# #ed_op#/P#ed_cl##ed_op#P style="MARGIN: 0px"#ed_cl#Have any studies ever been done to anyone's knowledge where very very tall horses consistently produced very very tall foals if bred to tall (over 16hh stallions or mares)?#ed_op#/P#ed_cl##ed_op#P style="MARGIN: 0px"#ed_cl# #ed_op#/P#ed_cl##ed_op#P style="MARGIN: 0px"#ed_cl#Are the really tall ones genetic freaks or is there some basis for them to pass on their "tall" genes to subsequent generations?#ed_op#/P#ed_cl##ed_op#P style="MARGIN: 0px"#ed_cl# #ed_op#/P#ed_cl##ed_op#P style="MARGIN: 0px"#ed_cl#Yes - there is a reason for me asking #ed_op#IMG alt="" src="http://www.horsegroomingsupplies.com/horse-forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif" border=0 smilieid="4"#ed_cl# #ed_op#/P#ed_cl##ed_op#P style="MARGIN: 0px"#ed_cl# #ed_op#/P#ed_cl##ed_op#P style="MARGIN: 0px"#ed_cl#Last night I bought this lovely 3 year old TB mare off the track, that measures at 17.3 1/4! #ed_op#IMG alt="" src="http://www.horsegroomingsupplies.com/horse_forum/eek.gif" border=0 smilieid="10"#ed_cl# #ed_op#/P#ed_cl##ed_op#P style="MARGIN: 0px"#ed_cl# #ed_op#/P#ed_cl##ed_op#P style="MARGIN: 0px"#ed_cl#I am assuming that at 3 years of age, she is still not done growing and once she comes off the track and lets down, she may well put on another inch or two over the course of the next few years (and hit 18hh - 18.1hh???). She will, of course, get bred to Guaranteed Gold (16.1hh) to produce some lovely and hopefully VERY tall palomino babies! #ed_op#IMG alt="" src="http://www.horsegroomingsupplies.com/horse_forum/graemlins/applaud.gif" border=0 smilieid="14"#ed_cl# #ed_op#/P#ed_cl##ed_op#P style="MARGIN: 0px"#ed_cl# #ed_op#/P#ed_cl##ed_op#P style="MARGIN: 0px"#ed_cl#Has anyone out there had TB mares this tall and if so - what did they consistently produce? I dont think WB mares would be the same as they generally have more genetic "tall" genes to pull from. I am just very very curious as to whether a TB mare this tall can consistently pass on her height to successive foals.#ed_op#/P#ed_cl##ed_op#P style="MARGIN: 0px"#ed_cl# #ed_op#/P#ed_cl##ed_op#P style="MARGIN: 0px"#ed_cl#It will sure be a lot of fun to find out!#ed_op#/P#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby Brianna » Sun Oct 16, 2005 8:49 am

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT color=#8000ff#ed_cl#I don't know the answer, TC - other than to suggest looking into her pedigree and what heights were there before her, etc. She could just be a "freak of nature" or it could be in her genetics, where the horses gradually get bigger and bigger...and, well...bigger!#ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT color=#8000ff#ed_cl##ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT color=#8000ff#ed_cl#Either way...omg, that's not a horse...it's a GIRAFFE!!! The last 17.3hh horse I saw was a Hanoverian mare by a Diamant son...and she was only 4 at the time. #ed_op#IMG src="http://forums.equestrianconnection.com/richedit/smileys/Shocked/1.gif"#ed_cl##ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT color=#8000ff#ed_cl##ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT color=#8000ff#ed_cl#Post pics of her when you can, lol ;) #ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby TrueColours » Sun Oct 16, 2005 8:58 am

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Here are a couple of pictures of her#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#She is going to be a BIG girl once she fills out more!!!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#IMG src="http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueColoursFarm/images/BM1.jpg"#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#and another one of her:#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#IMG src="http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueColoursFarm/images/BM.jpg"#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby Brianna » Sun Oct 16, 2005 9:38 am

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT color=#8000ff#ed_cl#Yep, you've got yourself a rare-colored Giraffe. ;) #ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT color=#8000ff#ed_cl##ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT color=#8000ff#ed_cl#She's cute...will be an eye-catcher once she grows into herself some.#ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby Positively4thStreet » Sun Oct 16, 2005 9:41 am

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#She's so skinny! I hate how they're always so skinny when they come off the track. At least now she'll have a chance to fill out and get some muscle-- she looks like she's going to be gorgeous when she grows into herself.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby goldendryad » Sun Oct 16, 2005 11:07 am

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#WOW, she's gorgeous. I don't usually like chestnuts but I like her!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I think the height thing (preferring 16hh+) is a hunter thing. Generally speaking a 16hh horse is supposed to have that perfect 12' hunter stride.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Also some people think that the bigger the horse the bigger and better it can jump. Not true. I know an 18.1hh warmblood gelding that can't jump worth crud, and he's too clumsy to really do dressage.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#My coach (and she shows dressage and teaches jumping) has a theory about height in co-relation to brains. She thinks the taller the horse the dumber it is and less co-ordinated...she thinks it's brain is too far from it's feet. In some ways it makes sense since those wee little ponies have to be some of the smartest, craftiest equines ever. Same with Arabians, very intelligent. But her 17hh TB was clumsy and not very smart, very accident prone. He was really good at dressage, but not the sharpest crayon in the box. Her little 14.2hh Arabian mare is very sure footed and can really jump. So can a fellow boarder's Arabian mare...she's retired now but kicked butt in jumping in her youth.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#In English riding there seems to be this real draw towards bigger is better. But people aren't factoring in the ability of a smaller horse. British show-jumpers (the really good example escapes me) have competed and won huge, top level competitions on ponies and smaller horses.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Ponies and Arabians are very agile and catty and can jump well over what you'd think they could jump. Traditionally the Bedouins taught their Arabians to jump. They were prized for that ability...that and being able to stop from a full gallop in a slide (sliding stop anyone...) it was used to frighten and trick their enemy. But I'm off track.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I think conformation for jumping, more than size, is what matters.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I myself prefer smaller horses, I like their agility, manoeverability and being closer to the ground. I would even consider owning a taller pony, like a Welsh Cob or a Connemara. Plus I'm a small, light-weight girl. A horse with a big body takes up too much of my leg...and a tall one takes me far from the ground...#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Height genetics being passed on...well horse genetics are so complex. That 18.1hh warmblood's parents were both 16.2 and 16hh. I guess he must be a genetic throwback??#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#But nutrition also plays a role. My friend's stallion had a 14.3hh dam and a 15.3hh sire. He's about 15.hh now as a 4year old. But he was severely malnourished before they got him, so may not reach full potential. His dam's parent's were both 15hh+.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I think the better the food source the more likely they are to reach their optimum height. A poor diet (I think) stunts growth. I've seen horses that were severely underfed when they were younger and they look runty.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#On the other hand I've heard it's a bad idea to over feed a youngster. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#But maybe the dam also factors in. A dam will only grow the baby in her belly as big as she can handle. That's why smaller mares can get away with having babies to much bigger stallions. Once outside the baby does more growing. But due to the dam's size, does she maybe inhibit the tallness a bit? But maybe baby would do a bit more growing in a big gal like her?#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I wonder if studies have been done on height and genetics. It would be very interesting.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby Ruth » Sun Oct 16, 2005 1:31 pm

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I agree with looking back in the pedigree to see what heights her parents and grand-parents were. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Conversely I have a 15.2hh mare whose foals are huge - I think her last one will top out at around 17hh, and the one before that I think hit 16.3hh. I won't breed her to stallions that are big or known for throwing size. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#GD - I know from having this mare, that some mares do produce foals that are a bit bigger than they should! This last foal was tricky to get out, and had some limb deformities from being all cramped up in the uterus. Luckily she has straightened out with exercise and frequent farrier visits.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I have ridden a TB that was 18hh, I couldn't get the front and back ends together (do you remember Shades tbbrat? Did you ever ride him?). He did turn out to have a hole in his heart, unfortunately.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#My current dressage horse is 16.3hh, but height wasn't a factor when I was horse shopping, I'm not huge and don't mind a smaller horse, even large pony size as long as they have ability. I always found it mildly amusing that I am not concerned about height and ended up with 16.3hh.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby Chisholm » Sun Oct 16, 2005 1:36 pm

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Postively4th yes she looks skinny to our eye, but she is just in lean racing form if she just got off the track.  She is basically just pure lean muscle.  You don't see fat TB's on the track.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#And she is absolutely lovely.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#As for breeding the dam throws the bigger percentage into the foal.  But if you bred her to a tall stallion you are guaranteed BIG.  But you could breed her to a 15hh stallion and still get big.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby TrueColours » Sun Oct 16, 2005 7:32 pm

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#She is just under 2 weeks off her last race, so yes - she is still VERY racing fit and needs a few months off to chill out and gain some weight and - dare I say it!  #ed_op#IMG src="http://forums.equestrianconnection.com/richedit/smileys/confused.gif"#ed_cl# - GROW some more!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Thanks Chisolm - I was quite taken with her in the pictures and I think she will be even more stunning in person, in a few months time ...#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby Leena » Sun Oct 16, 2005 9:16 pm

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I found breeding is a mystery and you may have surprises along the road.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#For example, I have a Canadian breed horse yearling who stand at 15.1 hands while both parents stands 15 hands and 15.3 hands. This one should make it at 16. Canadian are not recognised to have the best canter; well this one will win in the ring for sure.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Where does that come from ? Hubby and I are scratching our head !!!!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#So now, I have a 4 months colt by a 17 hands trakehner outside of a 15.3 hands mare. Well I have seen one filly from this stud and she is 17 hands at 2 and still growing. The dam is about the same height than my mare.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#So, yes for nutrition, but also grands-parents should be consider. Despite all studies that could be made, breeding is still a real mystery !#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Leena#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby TrueColours » Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 am

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I wonder also if genetically - you have a better chance of a tall foal if you breed an 18hh mare to a 16hh stallion, rather than vice versa - an 18hh stallion to a 16hh tall mare??? #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I have never heard of any such studies being done before though ... #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I would think about the only casual examples might be the larger Clyde mares bred to the generally smaller TB stallions, but I dont think any breeding has been done within an actual breed itself to see if there is a difference in size in the resultant foals ...  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Anyone else?#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby GoDDeSSofWiNgS » Tue Oct 18, 2005 2:39 pm

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Look at the legs on her!#ed_op#IMG src="http://forums.equestrianconnection.com/richedit/smileys/Shocked/6.gif"#ed_cl#  Shes a real looker!  What is her registered name if you dont mind me asking?#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby Ruth » Tue Oct 18, 2005 3:36 pm

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#There was a study done where they bred Shires to Shetlands and vice versa, but the study was concerned with the size of the foals at birth, and unfortunately the size the foals grew to was never followed up on to the best of my knowledge.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby TrueColours » Fri Oct 21, 2005 6:24 am

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Her name is Brass Monkey, and I didnt end up buying her but a lady in the barn did, she will be here in about 7-10 days (once her paperwork is done) and she is being bred to Guaranteed Gold in 2006#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I am REALLY looking forward to seeing her and oh - they DID make a mistake in height measurement. She is just under 17.1hh which is just fine with all of us for a 3 yr old! #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby cadence » Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:04 pm

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#A TB at 3 might just fill out and not grow much taller.  She is very pretty!  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Since I breed Hanoverians and Oldenburgs this is where most of my knowledge is....It used to be that a Hanoverian or Oldenburg was placed lower on the scale of approvals if they were over 16.2 hh.  Very big and very tall horses were not wanted in the breed.  During the late 80's and 90's that seemed to change and some very large and very tall horses started coming through.  Now, it has begun to cycle back. The preferred height for most warmbloods is between 16 and 17 hh.  Getting too big is the main reason so much Thoroughbred and Arabian blood are introduced into the warmbloods.  My mare was placed 3rd by the Verband and she is 16.1-1/2 hh.  All of the mares in the top 10 were under 17 hh and all were very elegant. Elegant #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Personally, I have found that monster-sized horses suffer greater injuries and break downs.  I have a friend who has a Trak gelding who is 18.2 hh and by 6 he had already suffered his first ligament problem.  Now, he is 9 and has already started to develop arthritis in his knees and hocks.  Frankly, I can't see him living much past 15 before having to be put down as his life will probably become too painful and miserable. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I would think your main goal would be a horse between 16 adn 17hh. Not too many riders can ride something taller than 17 hh.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby babytigger » Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:27 pm

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#WOW TC!! she is gorgeous!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#and lookit her legs...my god, she's all legs!!!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#as for your questions - no idea, i'm not a breeding guru, or even a breeding know-a-litttle-bit! #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#but it is an interesting idea#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby TrueColours » Wed Oct 26, 2005 8:33 am

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#well - she is being picked up on Friday morning so we should see her late Friday evening or sometime on Saturday#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I can hardly wait! #ed_op#IMG src="/richedit/smileys/classic.gif"#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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