cheap glucosomine

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cheap glucosomine

Postby goldendryad » Thu Sep 01, 2005 11:19 am

Any leads on how to get a deal on glucosomine? I'm trying to cut costs,
so is my barn. So we are all looking for a cheap place to get
glucosomine or any other cost saving ideas!
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Postby Eileen » Thu Sep 01, 2005 11:49 am

#ed_op#TABLE id=HB_Mail_Container height="100%" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0 UNSELECTABLE="on"#ed_cl##ed_op#TBODY#ed_cl##ed_op#TR height="100%" UNSELECTABLE="on" width="100%"#ed_cl##ed_op#TD id=HB_Focus_Element vAlign=top width="100%" background="" height=250 UNSELECTABLE="off"#ed_cl#Sorry don't have an answer to your question....and me the queen of cheap....lol but if you find out..let me know...I have been using it on my one horse for years and I hate to think of what it has cost me....and I use it for myself as well....well not the same stuff  lol#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/TD#ed_cl##ed_op#/TR#ed_cl##ed_op#TR UNSELECTABLE="on" hb_tag="1"#ed_cl##ed_op#TD style="FONT-SIZE: 1pt" height=1 UNSELECTABLE="on"#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV id=hotbar_promo#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/TD#ed_cl##ed_op#/TR#ed_cl##ed_op#/TBODY#ed_cl##ed_op#/TABLE#ed_cl#
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Postby graciespook » Thu Sep 01, 2005 11:53 am

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Geez, thats an oxymoron...if anyone knows the answer to this let me know too!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby Ruth » Thu Sep 01, 2005 3:48 pm

graciespook wrote:#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Geez, thats an oxymoron...#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#IMG src="http://forums.equestrianconnection.com/richedit/smileys/Happy/19.gif"#ed_cl# That is EXACTLY the thought that went through my head when I read the title of this thread.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby Sodapoppers » Thu Sep 01, 2005 7:22 pm

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT color=#0060bf#ed_cl#BOY you guys have been missing out!!  There's a place in mount albert that sells glucosamine at VERY reasonable prices. It's called TRAC Equine - I pay $40 for two pounds. GD if you want you can send me money for it and shipping and i can ship it to you.  There is a message from TRAC Equine with contact info under the general thread. Do a search #ed_op#IMG src="http://forums.equestrianconnection.com/richedit/smileys/Happy/21.gif"#ed_cl##ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby Jakesterd » Fri Sep 02, 2005 4:07 pm

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#you will get what you pay for. North american glucosamine is manufactured from cartilagenous materials collected from animals killed in inspected establishments, Yes Glucosamine is from animals!!! Your feeding your horses eead animals..lol#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#The cheap glucosamine is from china and is extracted from the tracheas of dead chickens. There is little quality control. Plus the threat of bacterial or viral contamination ( ie bird flu)#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Think about what your buying.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#JD#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby Sodapoppers » Fri Sep 02, 2005 7:46 pm

Jakesterd wrote:#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#you will get what you pay for. North american glucosamine is manufactured from cartilagenous materials collected from animals killed in inspected establishments, Yes Glucosamine is from animals!!! Your feeding your horses eead animals..lol#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#The cheap glucosamine is from china and is extracted from the tracheas of dead chickens. There is little quality control. Plus the threat of bacterial or viral contamination ( ie bird flu)#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Think about what your buying.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#JD#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT color=#0060bf#ed_cl#Hmm, how about instead of just assuming the company (who's name i've listed for all to see on a public bb!) sells crap, you get the facts straight first?#ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT color=#0060bf#ed_cl#TRAC Equine is able to sell their products cheaper because they buy in BULK - as anything is cheaper in bulk, so is glucosamine.#ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT color=#0060bf#ed_cl##ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT color=#0060bf#ed_cl#GD - there is msm mixed in with the glucose that i get as well. Per pound it is 0.8 glucosamine, 0.2 msm.#ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby Jakesterd » Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:22 pm

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Dear oh Dear. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Sodapoppers is getting grumpier than I am.. I just re read my post. I couldn't find the word  "crap" in it anywhere..#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Nor did I say your supplier sold crap. I said there were different qualities of Glucosamine. As a matter of fact I notice that the named supplier is a significant advertiser on Equestrian Connection and we dont want them mad at us . Do we?#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Are you buying glucosamine sulphte or HCl, there is a difference.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Why dont you contact your supplier and ask for a certificate of origin and source (not a certificate of analysis) as their website on EC says it is available. Since I am not a buyer it wouldnt be ethical of me to ask.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Did you know that technically speaking glucosamine, and MSM are actually not legal for sale as an equine supplement in Canada. Glucosamine and MSM are considered new drugs by Health Canada and none have been approved. I have a letter from Health Canada in late 2003 saying that and I checked 2 months ago and the status had not changed.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Did you know that there was a paper presented at the very prestigeous Equine Science Symposium in Tuscon this summer by Welch, Potter, Eller, Gibbs and Hood entitled " Plasma concentrations of glucosamine and chondroiten sulphate in horses following an oral dose"? The results are most revealing!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#The horses were fed either 5.5 or 9.5 grams of pure Glucosamine HCl twice a day.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#They found no increase in blood glucosamine levels in the blood of horses after feeding. The same held true for chondroiten. I quote " In no case out of 250 samples was any glucosamine detected in the horse plasma.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#The scientific conclusion was " Due to the lack of significant amounts of either GlucN or CS in the blood, this study does not support the theory that orally dosed GlucN and CS are readily available to the joints through the bloodstream"#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#It may not matter how fancy your glucosamine is-- it probably isn't doing anything anyway..#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Oh well, science cant hold a candle to testimonials and peoples desire to buy something as a cure all and guilt reducer so the world will continue to pay for unproven remedies.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Ah ha what did I infer by guilt reducer.. well thats a product for people who know their horse is hurting but they want to ride, show, jump and or run them anyway so they desperately look for something to feed them as an excuse or justification for their continued disregard for the horses physical well being. "Well gee yes he is quite stiff in the left fetlock but I did feed him Wonder Whoopies so it must be OK!"#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Good night cruel world!!!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#JD#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby Sodapoppers » Fri Sep 02, 2005 10:28 pm

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT color=#0060bf#ed_cl##ed_op#STRONG#ed_cl#No not grumpy at all. Just nipping that in the budd before it had a chance to go anywhere - you know how things you read on a bb from a friend of a friend of a friend's cousin gets to be...Your post sure seemed to be implying that the product was indeed 'crap' since you made certain to mention of 'cheaper' glucosamine, and giving warn to what people buy...surely directed at the company to which I supplied a resource for as it was the only one mentioned.  Written word is a pita...#ed_op#/STRONG#ed_cl##ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT color=#0060bf#ed_cl##ed_op#STRONG#ed_cl##ed_op#/STRONG#ed_cl##ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT color=#0060bf#ed_cl##ed_op#STRONG#ed_cl#Interesting...If glucosamine does not do anything orally, why do people still use it on their horses? And if it is no longer legal, why is it still available..everywhere?#ed_op#/STRONG#ed_cl##ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby graciespook » Sat Sep 03, 2005 7:23 am

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Welcome back Jake!!!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Interesting study..I also heard they were planning on limiting the distribution of glucosamine to prescriptions from doctors and vets correct?#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I can honestly say with the horse that I have now I haven't noticed a difference. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby Jakesterd » Sat Sep 03, 2005 7:59 am

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#It isnt that glucosamine as a medicinal ingredient for equines in no longer legal, it never has been legel. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Sooner or later Health Canada and Cabadian Food Inspection Agency are going to crack down, It just is a long way from the rop of the list with limited manpower and $. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#The USA has a rule called the GRAS statute. Generally Recognized As Safe. GlucN and the pthers fall under that heading. It means that they are probably safe so they dont care. The US rule doesnt call for proof of efficacy. In Canada Health Canada doesnt have a GRAS and works on the promise that something needs to be proven to work to be sold.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#There was a huge push in the US that knocked alot of herbals out of the market 2 years ago. At that time changes were made in Canada that limited claims. More  controls are forthcoming.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#If you look closley at many herbals or nutriceuticals you will notice they dont refer to the species anymore, just an inference by the name but no direct species feeding directions, thats an attempt to stay legal.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#The other thing is that as far as horses go they arent considered food producing livestock so its your money and no one in canada will be eating the results. The laws are geared to food producing livestock.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Glucosamine is not included on the approved list of ingredients for feed in Canada and also not on health Canadas list at this time. .#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Ask any marketer to apply for a DIN or GP number from Health Canada or a Registration from CFIA and watch them run away. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#JD#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby lokukac » Sat Sep 03, 2005 9:33 am

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#If I am well informed, feedstuff originated from animals has very limited or zero digestibility for other animals who are supposed to eat plants. ( I am talking about adult animals, not nursing foals.)#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#So I am not suprised at all on that study what was cited by Jake showing the zero change in the blood of horses after feeding glucosamine orally.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby Sodapoppers » Sat Sep 03, 2005 10:02 am

lokukac wrote:#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#If I am well informed, feedstuff originated from animals has very limited or zero digestibility for other animals who are supposed to eat plants. ( I am talking about adult animals, not nursing foals.)#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#So I am not suprised at all on that study what was cited by Jake showing the zero change in the blood of horses after feeding glucosamine orally.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT color=#0060bf#ed_cl#If this is true, then glucosamine taken orally should no sooner work on people than on horses, is that correct?  Is there a copy of this study for us all to see?#ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby Patricia » Sat Sep 03, 2005 10:17 am

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#WHOA there SP....!  Seems your the only one who thinks Jake is slamming you or your brandname....LOL!  I took his information for what it was....and I also agree with him!  Years ago I tested a good quality product and not just one bottle.  I found no difference at all.  In fact, like he says I wanted to believe it was helping and working.  Although, not out of guilt as I was not riding the mare--at the time she was going to be our broodmare...just wanted to make her more comfortable....LOL!  Alas, when I was totally honest with myself the answer was it didn't do any good and I was wasting my money.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Don't take things so personal...it is just a BB......LOL!  As far as the written word--just read what is there and not between the lines.....JMHO#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby Dream_Merchant » Sat Sep 03, 2005 10:17 am

<font color=#006699><b><i>
If that's the case, I'd imagine that it would work on humans, because we aren't primary veggie eaters...

who knows, that's got me totally confused *picks up her tablets* to think I'm throwing down chicken tracea is really a disturbing thought -- then again, its that, or lay awake screaming my tits off because it feels like someone is trying to jackknife my knees from their sockets... *tough choice*....
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Postby Eileen » Sat Sep 03, 2005 10:34 am

#ed_op#TABLE id=HB_Mail_Container height="100%" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0 UNSELECTABLE="on"#ed_cl##ed_op#TBODY#ed_cl##ed_op#TR height="100%" UNSELECTABLE="on" width="100%"#ed_cl##ed_op#TD id=HB_Focus_Element vAlign=top width="100%" background="" height=250 UNSELECTABLE="off"#ed_cl##ed_op#P#ed_cl#hmmm, get the gray matter working doen't it?&nbsp; I have been taking glu...for myself for years...so I know it helps me...not imaginagation...I ran out once and waited too long to replentish my supply....yep I knew that I should have ran to the store right then and there..I dont run out of it anymore...lol #ed_op#/P#ed_cl##ed_op#P#ed_cl#But that is the human vs glu question...I know that it helps me. #ed_op#/P#ed_cl##ed_op#P#ed_cl#But now you got me thinking,,,am I really helping my horse....does he benifit from the Gluc....I have spent a fortune on this particular horse...no I don't use him except for a couple of short rides around the farm in the summer...dont think I have had him out yet this year...he is retired you know...lol #ed_op#/P#ed_cl##ed_op#P#ed_cl#I will have to do some experimenting on this....maybe it is just a waste of money....#ed_op#/P#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/TD#ed_cl##ed_op#/TR#ed_cl##ed_op#TR UNSELECTABLE="on" hb_tag="1"#ed_cl##ed_op#TD style="FONT-SIZE: 1pt" height=1 UNSELECTABLE="on"#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV id=hotbar_promo#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/TD#ed_cl##ed_op#/TR#ed_cl##ed_op#/TBODY#ed_cl##ed_op#/TABLE#ed_cl#
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Postby Dream_Merchant » Sat Sep 03, 2005 10:56 am

<font color=#006699><b><i>
Are you using Gluc for his joints and such Eileen?? If he has joint pain etc, then perhaps you could try putting magnetic boots on him -- they can be costly, depending which ones you get etc etc, but you get the good sort, they will last for years, and when your boy has finished using them, no doubt there will be another one in line that would benifit from them as well!

I honestly swear by them for older horses, really helped a lot of my horses, and one you buy them, your not forking out money to replenish it all the time.
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Postby Ruth » Sat Sep 03, 2005 11:24 am

Jakesterd wrote:#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#" Plasma concentrations of glucosamine and chondroiten sulphate in horses following an oral dose"? The results are most revealing!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#The horses were fed either 5.5 or 9.5 grams of pure Glucosamine HCl twice a day.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#&nbsp;#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#They found no increase in blood glucosamine levels in the blood of horses after feeding. The same held true for chondroiten. I quote " In no case out of 250 samples was any glucosamine detected in the horse plasma.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#&nbsp;#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#This is why I prefer Adequan. I'm sorry, I don't have the study results handy to quote, but they found an increase in levels within 48 hours of the injection. My horse is not on it for an existing problem so I really can't tell you if it makes a difference to him or not, and who knows, maybe they will study it further and discover that it doesn't make a difference after all and I am just wasting my money, but it is my money to waste. However, that is why I chose Adequan over oral glucosamine when I decided to put him on something for his joints, at that time it was the only product that had been studied and proven to actually deliver the goods so to speak. Probably the study was funded by Wyeth and biased... However I figured if I was going to spend an appreciable amount of money on a joint supplement that I would prefer to spend it on a product that had actually been tested.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I have tried Tuffy, who is 25 and does have arthritis and sesamoiditis in her right hind fetlock, on First Level, a liquid supplement. She is not actually lame on it as long as she is not kept on concrete, but she cannot flex the joint as much as her other hind fetlock. I did find that she had an increased range of motion while on the supplement. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby Eileen » Sat Sep 03, 2005 1:00 pm

#ed_op#TABLE id=HB_Mail_Container height="100%" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0 UNSELECTABLE="on"#ed_cl##ed_op#TBODY#ed_cl##ed_op#TR height="100%" UNSELECTABLE="on" width="100%"#ed_cl##ed_op#TD id=HB_Focus_Element vAlign=top width="100%" background="" height=250 UNSELECTABLE="off"#ed_cl##ed_op#P#ed_cl#Actually DM...within the last 2 or 3 years...I have noticed a slight gimp that says that he has a slight stifle problem...not real bad, sometimes if one does not watch closely...it would go unnoticed.&nbsp; #ed_op#/P#ed_cl##ed_op#P#ed_cl#I have never given the magnents any thought although I do use them for myself.&nbsp; The particular horse has like meat platter sized feet....I wonder if they make that size (meat platter) in the boots.&nbsp; lol&nbsp; #ed_op#/P#ed_cl##ed_op#P#ed_cl#Then there is the question ...could I actually keep them on him, him being the originally Houdini of horsedom....I can't keep&nbsp; a halter on him for long.&nbsp; He is out 24/7 all year....what would the boots be like with that schedule...and I would not want him in them 24/7....not good for the foot itself would it be....just wondering about all these little bugs in the ointment.&nbsp; #ed_op#/P#ed_cl##ed_op#/TD#ed_cl##ed_op#/TR#ed_cl##ed_op#TR UNSELECTABLE="on" hb_tag="1"#ed_cl##ed_op#TD style="FONT-SIZE: 1pt" height=1 UNSELECTABLE="on"#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV id=hotbar_promo#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/TD#ed_cl##ed_op#/TR#ed_cl##ed_op#/TBODY#ed_cl##ed_op#/TABLE#ed_cl##ed_op#BLOCKQUOTE id=dd008c39#ed_cl#
Dream_Merchant wrote:&lt;font color=#006699&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;i&gt;#ed_op#BR#ed_cl#Are you using Gluc for his joints and such Eileen?? If he has joint pain etc, then perhaps you could try putting magnetic boots on him -- they can be costly, depending which ones you get etc etc, but you get the good sort, they will last for years, and when your boy has finished using them, no doubt there will be another one in line that would benifit from them as well!#ed_op#BR#ed_cl##ed_op#BR#ed_cl#I honestly swear by them for older horses, really helped a lot of my horses, and one you buy them, your not forking out money to replenish it all the time.#ed_op#BR#ed_cl#&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;
#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/BLOCKQUOTE#ed_cl#
s.w.ontario



The only horse one can truly trust is a dead one!!!
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Eileen
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Postby Jakesterd » Sat Sep 03, 2005 1:10 pm

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I will get the PDF of the paper and put it on my web server and then put the URL here for you all to peruse.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#&nbsp;#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#As for Dream_Merchant, Thats an interesting image you have created in my somewhat warped male mind....hmmmmm#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#&nbsp;#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#JD#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#&nbsp;#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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