Legend IV's Or Alternatives - HELP

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Legend IV's Or Alternatives - HELP

Postby Sodapoppers » Sun Oct 09, 2005 9:17 pm

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT color=#0060bf#ed_cl#I got some bad news the other day - I was planing to use Legend injection on Dream for his arthritis this winter. I thoughtit suounded great, tll my vet called to tell me about it.  Each injection will be about $98 dollars, PLUS they have to be given IV - meaning she has to come out, 3 weeks in a row to get it 'started' for him.  I'm looking at over $400 and the vet told me she is not confident the Legend will make a $400 difference.  I will talk to her Tuesday, but in the meantime, has anyone used Legend, or anoter injection for arthritis that has helped? #ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT color=#0060bf#ed_cl#He's already on glucosamine of course, but with the crappy weater, its started up already and he is miserable.TIA. #ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby Chisholm » Mon Oct 10, 2005 8:10 am

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Do you know if your glucosamine is doing anything?  Try a product called Fluid Action I have seen results with every horse ever put on it.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Other than that we tried Adequin with our old horse years ago.  Worked like a charm at first but then we were up to a shot a day to keep it working, a little to expensive.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby Keetee » Mon Oct 10, 2005 8:31 am

I can never remember, is Legend the IV injection and Adequan the joint
injection?  Our older gelding got the joint injections a few times
but now he gets the IV every time we start to feel him getting worse
(about every 6 mo. to a year but of course it depends on your
horse).  As I recall they are similar in price but we never
noticed a difference with the joint injections whereas we have noticed
a difference with the IV injections.  We had to start out with the
multiple shots in a row to "get him started" but now we just top him up
with another when we feel he's starting to get stiffer and
uncomfortable again and we usually notice a difference right
after.  The other benefit of the IV injection is that you don't
have to give them time off like you do with the joint injections, which
of course is important if you are trying to keep arthritis at
bay.  We also have Robbie on a liquid glucosamine supplement, I
think it is the one Chisholm mentioned.  The supplement was
recommended by our vet and we get it through him but you can buy it off
the shelf too.  I think it is cheaper if you get it through the
vet.  We had Robbie on a powder glucosamine supplement for years
before that but the liquid one is supposed to be more
effective.    
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Postby Ruth » Tue Oct 11, 2005 2:18 pm

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Personally I would try Adequan first. It's close to $300 for 4 vials, but it is an IM needle so you should be able to do it yourself. The loading dose is a shot a week for 4 weeks, then a shot a month thereafter.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#My vet recommends Adequan over Legend for joint health. Legend is a good product though, from what I"ve heard. There are also a couple of products like Fluid Action that are supposed to be very good - Lubrisyn is one, the name of the other is escaping me at the moment, but they are supposed to be better than Fluid Action due to molecule size.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Maybe you should consider retiring him, rather than pouring $$$$ into him to keep him rideable? Just a thought.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby Kaleena » Tue Oct 11, 2005 3:16 pm

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I don't have any personal experience with either Adequan or Legend. But if Adequan is given IM and the Legend is giving IV, I would try Adequan first because as Ruth said you can give the IM shot your self and save the vet call fees. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I used to give Glory her glucosamine IM every week. I got the vet to do it the first time and show me how, then I had my BO do it the next time so I could watch again, then I did it myself after that a few time with supervision but then I was on my own. It really isn't that hard and is a good skill to have.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Hope you find something that will work for both Dream and you.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby Sodapoppers » Wed Oct 12, 2005 12:31 am

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT color=#0060bf#ed_cl#I had to sit on my fingers because my first reaction was to really lash out about your comment Ruth, to be honest. I know I have been over this many times on this BB - people just assume Dream is old or crippled or some other nonsense.  So i don't get what is up with this retiring, it's nonsense.  Sorry to jump at that Ruth but it's really starting to get on my nerves (not you, but in general on this board, this comment has arisen and drives me nuts because it is SO unfounded) Dream is 17, he is a ONE ("not even" in the words of Mike Pownell) on the lameness scale out of FIVE. It's not a matter of 'making him last, making him rideable' - he can be ridden just fine, only in the winter he's very stiff for the first 15 mins or so. It's simply a matter of me wanting to make him more comfortable, hence the statement the legend isn't going to make a $400 difference - the difference isn't there to be made. I'll appolagize in advance if you found any of that offensive.#ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT color=#0060bf#ed_cl##ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT color=#0060bf#ed_cl#On that note the vet and I have been playing phone tag all week. I am going to try to get a hold of her again tomorrow, and Dr. Pownell again. He did leave a message but  I havn't spoken to him directly.  When he saw us in March he did not think Dream 'needed' something serious as Adequen or Legend but that it something that would make him more comfortable in the winter, so I am looking into it now. Maybe something such as the Fluid Action mentioned will likely be enough. #ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby Patricia » Wed Oct 12, 2005 8:07 am

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Well if Mike Pownall said he is a one in rating why worry about it.  Your opening yourself up to criticism again.  #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Let your horse run at liberty in the arena or lunge him to limber up faster.  Like 5 or 10 minutes then ride him.  That should supple him and take the wind out of his sails.  Regular exercise should be your horses best friend...It will keep him limber....I just give my mare MSM only....she is stiff BUT she is sound and happy for an old girl.  I had heard liquid glucosamine is absorbed faster/better than the powder variety.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Yes those IV/injection products are expensive and are primarily used by horses in competition.  I don't think you need to waste your money there.....JMHO#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby Sodapoppers » Wed Oct 12, 2005 8:27 am

Patricia wrote:#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Well if Mike Pownall said he is a one in rating why worry about it.  Your opening yourself up to criticism again. 
#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#
Sodapoppers wrote: #ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT color=#0060bf#ed_cl# It's simply a matter of me wanting to make him more comfortable
#ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT color=#0060bf#ed_cl##ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT color=#0060bf#ed_cl#IMO it shouldn't matter if he's a .5 or full blown 5, i want to make him as happy as I can, I hate seeing him uncomfortable at all.  Me asking for advice on how to make my horse more comfortable is opening myself up for critisism?   If that is true, then it's a sad world indeed.#ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#
Patricia wrote:Yes those IV/injection products are expensive and are primarily used by horses in competition.  I don't think you need to waste your money there.....JMHO#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT color=#0060bf#ed_cl#This is my opinion as well. Which is why I asked for some alternatives. Looking into it further, i don't think he needs something as 'serious' as legend yet - when I first got that grand idea i had no clue it would be so expensive LOL. He *definetly* dosn't need the joint injection yet, he's a far ways from that - I heard the legend was a good alternative, but as i said it's not yet a $400 case. I want to prevent it being so too for as long as i can! And yes he is stiff but he is also sore - do you know what a bone spavin is? That's what he is, and the way it was described to me is when it gets cold, it flares up and is equivilant to you having a needle stuck in your foot, and when your foot swells in your shoe, it's stabbing you. #ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT color=#0060bf#ed_cl##ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT color=#0060bf#ed_cl#Patricia, when you feed the straight MSM did you find a big difference? A good friend of mine told me she also used this instead of the glucosamine & msm mixture (which is what he gets now) and had good success. #ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT color=#0060bf#ed_cl##ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT color=#0060bf#ed_cl#Where can i find the fluid action? I have looked in some stores around here, and found nothing so far.#ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby Sodapoppers » Wed Oct 12, 2005 2:41 pm

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT color=#0060bf#ed_cl#Just got off the phone with Mike Pownell. He personally recommends injecting the hock directly#ed_op#IMG src="/richedit/smileys/bored.gif"#ed_cl#His reasoning was because it will help the joint fuse and it is far less expensive, and it is something that will last longer for what i am doing, and it is something I can do in the winter and not in summer, seeing as it is less bothersome to him then.#ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT color=#0060bf#ed_cl#He is in Newmarket tomorrow so i am trying to wheel and deal to get my dad to drop us off there, but if he can't then Dr. Pownell is up again in a week so we will see him then. #ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT color=#0060bf#ed_cl##ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT color=#0060bf#ed_cl#Anyone have experience / opinions of the hock injections? I had some concerns which I was told were pretty much myth (it further damaging the joint etc). I was told what damages the joint are medications which mask the pain so he fully uses himself on it and damages it further. I swear the man is akin to a horse god but others telling me they've had success with it too dosn't hurt :D#ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby Ruth » Wed Oct 12, 2005 4:15 pm

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Soda, I wasn't being critical when I suggested thinking about retirement for Dream - of course I have no idea what he moves like, how much discomfort he is really in, but sometimes we can get caught up in trying to keep a horse rideable. I am a big supporter of keeping older horses in at least light work for as long as it is feasible - however in my case I won't spend a whole load of $$$ to keep an older horse rideable when they are comfortable enough to be a lawn ornament without supplements - but this is your horse and your money to spend as you see fit.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#As far as joint injections go, it depends what they are injecting the horse with. Any joint injection carries a risk of infection. Cortisone DOES degrade the joint over time, it works, but it destroys synovial fluid so in the long run it does damage. I don't think there is such a problem with injecting glucosamine, Adequan or Legend into joints, just the risk of infection, which I'm not sure how great a risk that is.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby zooka » Wed Oct 12, 2005 8:07 pm

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#SP I sent you an e-mail of what we use, hope it helps#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby Ruth » Thu Oct 13, 2005 3:34 pm

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I remembered the name of the other hyaluronic acid supplement that is supposed to be really good. It's Hyaluron.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#You can get Fluid Action at Greenhawk or Baker's.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby PerfectAngel » Fri Oct 14, 2005 9:03 am

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#have you ever considered trying the "herbs for horses" products?? I know someone who swears by "mobility" for her fairly arthritic 18 yr old QH gelding.....she has him jumping again!! He has been on it for 2 years I think, but apparently it's very good as not as expensive as the vet coming out to do injections....plus it's just a daily feed supplement, so you don't even have to do any injections yourself!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Just a thought....#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby graciespook » Fri Oct 14, 2005 10:52 am

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I've heard nothing but good about injecting the hocks, and I hope it really works for him. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#About the comment to Ruth. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#We are throwing suggestions out there. Sometimes, we don't like those suggestions, and sometimes not everyone has the same idea that we do. It was a sound suggestion. I have had it suggested for other horses I've owned, I've given that suggestion to some horse friends before, and no one needed to get upset about it. You can take it or leave it, and say thanks, but no thanks, I think he's fine. Ultimately, most of us have never seen and will never see Dream. We don't know the whole story and what he's like, but its something that comes to mind..the same way when someone asks for advice on their riding position. When the signs point to something, we give the advice which is asked for. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I'm not trying to pounce on you or tell you that I think he needs to be retired. I personally feel that this may help, but sometimes, even though a horse is only 17, they are older than you really think they are. I had a mare I bought to do low level dressage at the age of 18. She was very sound. But with encroaching heaves, and other small problems, I had to face the facts--she was now my hack horse and I had to spend the money to make her comfortable. She was never going to go to any more shows, and I had another competition horse. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#You're being very responsible and conscientious of what your horse needs right now with the injections. You just want to make sure you're doing it for the right reasons. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Now please don't jump all over me for this, this was meant as how I perceived the situation, and I'm not trying to snap back or be petty. Just retreating back into the shadows with my white flag waving..;)#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby Sodapoppers » Fri Oct 14, 2005 12:48 pm

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT color=#0060bf#ed_cl#Lol Gracie...thats ok I know what you mean. I Pm'd Ruth too - my frustration about the retirement comment dosn't come from Ruth...it's just an all round thing and it has been addressed several times here. Something as simple as me posting a thread about not being able to make my horse go straight to the left (which turned out to be 100% rider error!!!) lead to a discussion about me retiring Dream.  For some reason, some people seem to have it out for him to retire when the notion is quite silly considering the health he is in#ed_op#IMG src="/richedit/smileys/cheeky.gif"#ed_cl# I'm sure there are plenty of people here with horses who require more maintenance and they are still being ridden, so why single out Dream?...That iss where I was coming from in my previous post.. Thank you for your well wishes!#ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT color=#0060bf#ed_cl##ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT color=#0060bf#ed_cl#PA - Never have tried the herbs...I've tried cortisone paint, msm/glucosamine, light exercise, this equi tight stuff that's supposed to be good for arthritis, and other liniments.My vet explained to me that because Dream has a slight limp in winter, when it's inflamed, then that means damage has already been done to the hock. It will need to have fluid injected directly to ensure there is lubrication, and to try to slow down the process, even though he is low on the lameness scale.#ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT color=#0060bf#ed_cl##ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT color=#0060bf#ed_cl#The good news is my vet thinks he'll be better than new on this treatment :D  woo hoo maybe i will actually be able to get him to track up without killing my legs in the process ;)#ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby babytigger » Fri Oct 14, 2005 12:56 pm

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#SP - sorry to hear about the possible injections....not that i know much abvout it, but what i do know is that anything that will help dream & make him happier & more confortable is worth it.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#he's what? 15 or something....too young to retire, and other than a leg issue or two he seems ot be in very good health. and now possibly the leg issue can be remedied to a certain point, so i wouldn't even consider it.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#i totally understand being a little irked about the suggestion though.....kinda gets to be like a broken record playing in your head after a while eh? i'm sure if dream ever came to the point of needing to be retired, you'd be the first one ot sday so, as in th end, i know you ultimately care about your horses & their well being first & foremost.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
Horses do think. Not very deeply, perhaps, but enough to get you into a lot of trouble." - Unknown
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Postby Ruth » Fri Oct 14, 2005 2:19 pm

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#BT - I  do not remember every thread that gets written about Dream. In fact the one about the crookedness I didn't follow, so I wouldn't have even known anyone had suggested retirement before.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Some horses are done before they're 20, others aren't, so I don't really see what his age has to do with it anyway. My TB gelding was finished by the time he was 12, yet my 25 yo Morgan mare is fine with no supplements - and she has a bowed tendon, sesamoiditis and arthritis, yet she is working sound. I'm sure she'd never pass a flexion test, though!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#My comment was not meant as criticism, anyway. In Soda's original post she sounds like affording the Legend is an issue, so my POV is if it's going to be difficult to afford the treatment why not retire the horse? I have no issue with her wanting to keep him rideable, or how she spends her money. It's none of my business, and I think that she is probably the best thing that ever happened to this horse.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#However, having worked with horses for over 10 years I have seen plenty of people pour good money after bad trying to keep a horse going.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Soda and I have had a PM discussion about this, I'm not mad at her and as far as I know she's not mad at me, so can we let this go please?#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby babytigger » Fri Oct 14, 2005 3:30 pm

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#ruth - i was replying in direct repsonse to SPs post, nothing to do with your comment, merely my comment about some things SP had said & posted before, and how she felt as she'd indicated in her post. nothing more, nothing less.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
Horses do think. Not very deeply, perhaps, but enough to get you into a lot of trouble." - Unknown
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arthritic horses

Postby Gypsy » Mon Nov 14, 2005 9:16 pm

Horses with arthritis actually do better with work and will often get
worse with retirement, which is obvious since he improves with
work.  Being stiff does not always equal pain.  His owner
knows him best and would notice a difference in his desire to be ridden
or work.#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
I would try a complex supplement like Uba vet it comes in liquid and is
a glucosamine / chondrotin and msm complex and can work wonders. 
Remember supplements like these can take up to six weeks to work. 
They should be used year round because they actually promote healing of
the joint and further arthritis.  You can use other drugs like
joint injections or stronger pain relief in conjunction with Uba vet
when he is having a harder time in bad weather.  Remember he is
your horse and you know when he is happy so enjoy him. #ed_op#br#ed_cl#
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Postby Arcadia » Tue Nov 15, 2005 1:20 pm

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#SP I just started 4 in my barn on Recovery, the initial loading dose will be pricey but after that it's about $90 a month maybe a little less.   It's reported to be a wonder drug, whether it is or not I will find out soon enough.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Supposed to help with breathing issues as well as hoof maintenance along with helping joints.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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