At my wits end!!

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At my wits end!!

Postby Dream_Merchant » Mon Aug 22, 2005 5:40 am

<font face='times new roman' size=2 color=#006699><i>
Ok - here is a tough one for you guys, below is a picture of an ex-racer I've had for near on 18 months or so, he is only just started jumping 1m, which is what he is jumpin gin the picture below. My problem with him is, he pisses me off something cronic!!! You have no idea how many times after trying to jump him I've wanted to grab a gun and shove it somewhere where it doesn't fit. *sighs* Anyhow, after that little vent, the problem is: I've tried countless techniques with him, what he wants to do is run at a fence. I've changed bits etc etc on him, and at the moment I've got a rubber pelham on him, which yesterday I used two reins so I'm riding mainly off the snaffle, but use the pelham only when he leans on my hand or wants to jolt off. I've found that, if I see a nice stride and just let him travel to the fence, he'll jump it beautiful (as below), but as soon as I come around and see that waiting distance, I sit up and ask him to wait and he throws his head in the air, and just runs into it, therefore flattening the fence. Now unfortunately I'm not good enough to simply canter into a fence perfectly each time off the corner, and there will always be waiting distances in between fences -- grr... what can I do, he is possibly my BEST schooled horse on the flat because he is such a pleasure to school at home, and as you can see, the little *soandso* can really jump, he's clean and has a super hindend... he just looses his carefulness when he throws his head around and runs into a fence..... any suggestions guys??</i></font>

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Postby lokukac » Mon Aug 22, 2005 12:07 pm

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Hi DeamM, here is my 2cents:#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#18 months are not too long to forget the races. TBs are very sensitive everywhere - mouth, back, etc.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I think it is a great achievement what I see on that pic.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#What I would do: #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#OL#ed_cl##ed_op#LI#ed_cl#I would use the mildest bit possible (mullen rubber or happy mouth), or even go bitless (my recent mare - TBXHann - &nbsp;goes bitless, I made a thing for her nose).#ed_op#/LI#ed_cl##ed_op#LI#ed_cl#I would not sit down on my butt for a #ed_op#EM#ed_cl#good few months#ed_op#/EM#ed_cl#, just ride him in the two point between the jumps.#ed_op#/LI#ed_cl##ed_op#LI#ed_cl#I would jump70-90 cm high shorter courses (5-6 jumps) at home like 2-3 times a week and 2-3 times an occassion. Do not fight with him, let him figure.#ed_op#/LI#ed_cl##ed_op#LI#ed_cl#Twice a week I would do gymnastics: bounces, 2 -1 strides.#ed_op#/LI#ed_cl##ed_op#LI#ed_cl#I would give another 5-6 months to that horse to master.#ed_op#/LI#ed_cl##ed_op#LI#ed_cl#Trail ride&nbsp;on the other days to avoid becoming sour!#ed_op#/LI#ed_cl##ed_op#/OL#ed_cl##ed_op#P#ed_cl#Cheers for you, and be patient!!!#ed_op#/P#ed_cl##ed_op#P#ed_cl#&nbsp;#ed_op#/P#ed_cl#
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Postby Flyin' High » Mon Aug 22, 2005 12:18 pm

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#ok, i completely agree with loku...#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#&nbsp;#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#one thing you dont want to do is comtinuously put a harsher bit in your boys mouth...put him back in a very soft bit, and work from there.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#&nbsp;#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#gymnastics are great because they make a horse really think about what they are doing with their feet.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#&nbsp;#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#if he gets rushy a bit, let him, he also needs to figure things out on his own. my old mare was the same way.. she would bolt towards the fences, a few times i let her do it and she would figure things out for herslef, but at the same time, i would still need to ride her every stride.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#&nbsp;#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#rushing fences is tricky to figure out bc all horses will do it slightly differently.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby Dream_Merchant » Mon Aug 22, 2005 8:07 pm

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Loku -- thanks for your lovely comment, he can really jump! - you pretty much read my mind actually.

I ride him in 2 point all the time already, I forgot to mention he has this thing of been quite backy -- when I first get on, I'll trot and around and flex him up through the neck and back, then as I go into canter, I get into 2-point because he sort of bucks and plays around a bit. I've had his back checked for problems, nothing... I've had him flex tested for lameness issues, nothing... so I know the bucking is a back problem -- he is very short in the back which makes it easy for him, and the buck isn't vicious, its more playful than anything. If you try and pull him up for it, he goes right off his brain, if I let him play for the first 5 minutes, he is fine throughout. And I find when I'm jumping him, if I'm off his back all the time, he is more relaxed, where if I sit on him, I can feel him tense up a bit.

I used to strap him as a race horse when I lived down south -- he used to get super wound up at races (used to be dripping with sweat before he went into the race), that was mainly due to how he was been handled before I graduated from stable hand to strapper. Within three race meetings, I had him so he was reasonably relaxed at race day (he was still tense and jack up a bit, but he wouldn't sweat up like he did). Anyway, I moved closer to the city and he went back into old habits with the dickhead who was racing him -- I always loved him as a horse, he really took my fancy and anyway, I got offered him, and $300 dollars later he arrived.

At shows now, he is really good -- I can go up to the gate and jump off, pull the saddle up if I need to or anything like that, and get back on and he is fine. Before he would rear and sweat up and just go off his brain -- he has really settled into the routine in that aspect.

He is fantastic in a grid situation -- really snaps up and gets off the ground and WAITS!!! Yet, as soon as you come to a single fence, bam, he wants to run a bit if I need to wait.

I also found, if I change the jumps around continuously, he doesn't know where they are, and so doesn't come off a corner and start throwing his head around because he knows there is a jump coming up -- I think he is smarter than I give him credit for! I only have about 6 jumps at home (the grid, and then 4 jumps, and a combination) - so there is no worries about me building super long courses! haha.

We also go out on rides, in which he just loves!! He used to be a jackass out in the forest as well -- but now he is so relaxed and cruisey about it, I hardly touch his mouth out in the forest. I might take him back to a bridle set up I had on him when I first started jumping him, because he never used to be a dickhead back then -- it was a french link snaffle and a cross over noseband, I might try that bit again at least anyway, he seemed comfortable in it.

I'll certainly try those suggestions and let you know how he goes! As I said, he is just brillant on the flat -- flying changes, leg yeilding, walk to canter transistion (haven't got the canter to walk ones quite yet), lengthening of strides, comign back etc....
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Postby lokukac » Mon Aug 22, 2005 8:45 pm

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I really mean be patient!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#My mare needed 5-6 months to click: the jumper course is not an aeroport where horses need to fly. #ed_op#IMG src="http://forums.equestrianconnection.com/richedit/smileys//smiley30.gif"#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Now you go into the warm season (winter in Australia), by then you are out of it, your horse will be a winner.#ed_op#IMG src="/richedit/smileys/cool.gif"#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Dream, the bucking could&nbsp;happen because of the uncomfortable bit as well! The horse feels restricted to go forward, so he will come up-up. Think about this.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Keep us posted!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby *Giddy Up* » Mon Aug 22, 2005 9:33 pm

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I think this is something that will take time.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#&nbsp;#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I ride an ex-racer and she is still just now going around nicely at one pace (most of the time). I mean, she is MUCH better than she was before- she too would take off like a bat out of hell.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#&nbsp;#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Right now, there is only so much you can do.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#&nbsp;#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I wouldn't go with a harsher bit, I would go as light as possible. I started Zippy with a loose ring, then to a D ring, then now in a loose ring (quite a thick one too). #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#&nbsp;#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I would do gymnastics, gymnastics, and more gymnastics- and poles! you can NEVER go wrong with just poles. Even make a course with them and just ride them to practice distances and let your horse to relax. You can also do more with them without worrying about the height getting in the way. I'd also go back to trot poles, and set up a couple sets around the arena of varying distances (some short, some long) and go around them and this way, you horse has to listen to you to tell him whether to extend or collect.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#&nbsp;#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Also, if he is rushing, make him stop before the jump a couple times and after- depending where he rushes. You said he rushes before right? Then as soon as he starts rushing, make him stop. Then let him go over. If he rushes after then make him stop right away (like a stride or two after the fence- this is what I had to do), then you continue on. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#&nbsp;#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#It will take some time, but be consistent and it will happen. He looks like an awesome jumper, and you can see that he can jump the height- that is no problem. So take him back to smaller jumps and go back to the basics. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby Dream_Merchant » Mon Aug 22, 2005 10:11 pm

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Loku --> he's bucked from day dot, with a snaffle or pelham in his mouth. I keep thinking it might be the saddle or his back, but I've had him checked over so many times before. I'm actually getting a Bowden therapist to come out and give him a go over, see if that helps him (muscle work -- I'm doing a course in it but not far enough along to do anything physical yet). Hopefully that will help him, because of him been so tense, I'm thinking maybe he's making himself muscle sore and bound up a bit without me noticing (I can run a finger down his back and he's fine).... I'll let you know how that goes anyway.

I put the ear muffs and plugs in his ears (as you may have noticed from the pic) because he gets a little ratty with a lot of noise going on around him -- that really helped a lot too.

I think with him, it's a combination of a lot of things, rather than one just simple fact. I'm going to have a lesson with my old coach tomorrow or the next day to go to "boot camp" as we call it. I haven't had a lesson from him a long time, and I think we're well overdue -- plus having someone on the ground looking, it might just well be me doing something small that I haven't noticed, making him want to run.

I'll definately go back to the poles with him, I haven't done that work for a month or so with him, so definately back to that with him -- and I'll definately be putting the french link snaffle back in his mouth (the single links hit the top of his mouth as he only has a small mouth) and just keep the cavason noseband on him without the hanoverian strap. Thanks again guys -- I'll definately keep you posted about the lesson.
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Postby *Giddy Up* » Tue Aug 23, 2005 7:59 pm

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Yes, keep us posted! I think a lesson will do wonders- just as you said, it's a pair of eyes on the ground seeing what you may have missed. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby Katy » Wed Aug 24, 2005 7:18 pm

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Hey Dream #ed_op#IMG src="/richedit/smileys/classic.gif"#ed_cl#,#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Wow, its so nice to hear the my horse isn't the only weird one around these days. He does, or did until yesterday the exact same thing as your horse. My horse in the last 1 or 2 strides TAKES OFF full gallop to his jumps, and the same, if I try holding him back, he just throws his head.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#&nbsp;#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I completely agree with Giddy Up, halting your horse before and after jumps if they're being bad is exactly what&nbsp;I do, and its finally started working with my horse. When you pull your horse&nbsp;up, if he tosses his head all around, back his butt up! Also, using draw reins for this works wonderfully, by attaching them to your breast plate. The draw reins make it a lot harder for them to toss their heads, and&nbsp;they can't&nbsp;evade the bit when youre asking him to slow down. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#&nbsp;#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Yesterday, I tried using a hackamore on my horse, and it was absolutely amazing. He took off once towards his jump, but afterwards, he was wonderful. I think you might want to try a hackamore, some horses just plain don't like&nbsp;having bits, and the pressure on&nbsp;his nose may do the trick. You may as well pick one up, at least you can return it if it works horribly lol. Just a warning though, use a VERY light rein, or else they become used to the pressure, so it'll stop working after a while. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#&nbsp;#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Well, theres my 2 cents, keep us updated!!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Katy#ed_op#IMG src="http://forums.equestrianconnection.com/richedit/smileys//horsehead2.gif"#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby *Giddy Up* » Thu Aug 25, 2005 11:45 am

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Like Katy, I also used to have the problem with Zippy throwing her head up, well, she just jumped with her head up in general. However, I used a standing martingale. It really helped, because before she was leaning on my hands alot (being very green) so it made it alot harder for me to properly release her over the fence, so by using the martingale it took some of that pressure off my hands so she and I could learn how to go over the fences much nicer.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#&nbsp;#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Zippy still jumps with her head up, but not like before- I've stopped using the martingale now- I can actually control her now.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby Foxie » Thu Aug 25, 2005 12:41 pm

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Poles, poles and more poles. On one side of the arena,&nbsp;put canter poles down. Trot through then canter through. Establish a nice steady rhythm. Then in the middle of the poles put up a jump. Ride it the same as you did when the jump wasn't there. Nothing should change. If he gets quick on the approach, circle and don't take the jump if he is coming in fast. Nice and steady. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Also I ditto what everyone else said!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby Flyin' High » Fri Aug 26, 2005 1:21 am

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#IMO, using DRAW REAING while jumping is a HORRIBLE idea! they can easily spli under a horses legs and get tangled!! while i love them for working on the flat, i'd suggest using a martingale (running if doing jumpers, sanding if doing hunters). this will give the horse more free range of motion, while keeping his head down, and NOT getting his legs caught!!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby Dream_Merchant » Sat Aug 27, 2005 5:42 am

<font face='garamond' size=3 color=#006699>
Yes, I'd be way too nervous using drew reins on a horse jumping, not only for the reason that if your riding a careful horse that is very snappy with their front end, they could get caught -- but also for the reason that unless you are senstive with your hands so that you can give the horse enough rein so they can freely use their head and neck over the fence, you would restrict them a hell of a lot. I know I've heard people say that, "Oh but the Germans use them all the time", well I'm afraid I'm no super natural German rider (as much as I'd like to be :P He's got a running martingale on now, he used to have a standing martingale on, but he just used to hit that and fight it more, and the tighter you went with it, the more he would fight it, and therefore the less concentration he would have as you came to the fence -- and the looser you went, the less it worked anyway.

I would love to be able to give you an update on him, but unfortunately I trapped a nerve in my lower back and haven't had the strength to lift an empty bucket up, let alone jump on a horse -- I should be back in the saddle tomorrow wearing my back brace (even though I shouldn't be), and work him then, which no doubt he'll have built up plently of buck from having the week off! haha. So the update may have to wait a week or so on the flat at least anyway.</font>
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Postby lokukac » Sat Aug 27, 2005 9:05 pm

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Dream:#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#At least longe that buckerooo before you get on if you have&nbsp;a bad back. But learn from my mistake and don't do it in a simple halter: #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Two days ago I was longeing&nbsp;my horse&nbsp;only with a halter on, and that biggy spooked, I went flying on the end of the longe line (110 pounds here). Of course the mare got even more terrified seeing me in that strange position. I was holding the line for 7-8 minutes like a pit bull, skiing on my belly,&nbsp; my back, sometimes I switched onto my sides when it got too uncomfy. Finally I won, the horse slowed down, and I was able to put my legs under me!!! Now I am licking my skinless parts and I sleep like a dead mouse.#ed_op#IMG src="http://forums.equestrianconnection.com/richedit/smileys//smiley18.gif"#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Take care Dream, careful with those lower backs!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby Dream_Merchant » Sun Aug 28, 2005 7:25 am

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Loku --> I didn't end up getting on him today, it poured with rain all day, one of those depressing days where you just curl up by the fire and go to sleep!!

I will lunge him though -- he doesn't buck on the lunge though, little devil, just plays around in the canter when you first start working him. I find if I get on, jumping straight into canter and let him play for five mintues, changing direction and letting him get his own changes etc, he is fine. Otherwise if I fight him in the trot, he sort of gets this back spasm happening and try to buck, which is far worse for my back than anything. I'm going back to the chiro tomorrow afternoon to give him another crack at getting my back back into place.

Yes, I've done the halter trick before -- however I lunge in a small yard which is sort of two 30 m circles long, so if they go to bugger off and I can't be bothered fighting them, I'll let them go. I lunge them with a bridle one and a the pessoa training system on them to encourage them to lower their neck and round their back, and I put a cavasson over the top which has the clip on the top of the nose. But thanks for the advice!!
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Postby lokukac » Sun Aug 28, 2005 6:04 pm

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Geez Dream, preparing for longeing your horse takes as long as preparing a Xmas tree with all the ornaments!#ed_op#IMG src="http://forums.equestrianconnection.com/richedit/smileys//grin.gif"#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I am on the lazy side, I put only what is needed for survival.#ed_op#IMG src="http://forums.equestrianconnection.com/richedit/smileys//smiley4.gif"#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#&nbsp;#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Get better with your back!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby *Giddy Up* » Sun Aug 28, 2005 6:25 pm

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Ouch! How'd you do that to your back? Don't ride if it hurts too much- you could make it worse!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#&nbsp;#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#lokukac- Why didn't you just let go if you're being dragged? That's gotta hurt!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby Brianna » Sun Aug 28, 2005 6:34 pm

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT color=#6000bf#ed_cl#I dunno how helpful this will be, but it came to mind reading some of your comments about him and his style. I used to ride with a woman who put me on anything and everything in her barn - and very often the horses were green over fences...or, in the case of my mare when I started riding her (before I bought her) - were just green, period, lol. One of her biggest things in our lessons, that I found extremely helpful, was "Ride each fence like it's the last one in the course." -- I don't know about you - but, my last fence always tends to be the best, even when I am not in a lesson - because you always want to "end on a good note." #ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT color=#6000bf#ed_cl##ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl#&nbsp;#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#FONT color=#6000bf#ed_cl##ed_op#/FONT#ed_cl#&nbsp;#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby lokukac » Sun Aug 28, 2005 10:20 pm

*Giddy Up* wrote:#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Ouch! How'd you do that to your back? Don't ride if it hurts too much- you could make it worse!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#&nbsp;#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#lokukac- Why didn't you just let go if you're being dragged? That's gotta hurt!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#&nbsp;#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#This is what I call pitbull-effect.#ed_op#IMG src="http://forums.equestrianconnection.com/richedit/smileys//ogre.gif"#ed_cl#&nbsp; A left-open-gate can initiate that.#ed_op#IMG src="http://forums.equestrianconnection.com/richedit/smileys//paranoid.gif"#ed_cl#&nbsp; Sometimes I do stupid things as well#ed_op#IMG src="/richedit/smileys/alien.gif"#ed_cl#.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby Dream_Merchant » Mon Aug 29, 2005 4:03 am

<font color=#006699><b><i>
lol -- guess it comes from been a perfectionist and wanting to make the most out of each training session with my horses!! Mind you, I have done the whole *grab a bucket and sit on it with coffee in one hand, cigarette in another and somehow managing to lunge a horse without getting tangled up* hahaha

Brianna -- that's a true thought!! I was also told the other way round, make sure you ride the last fence like it is the first -- I know I tend to relax as the last fence comes up, you think "Cool, last fence, easy", you get over it and bang crash, you rack up 4 faults on a otherwise brillant round!! lol -- but I'll keep it in mind! thanks!
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<font color=royalblue><i><b>Horse; you are truly a creature without equal - for you fly without wings, and conquer without a sword

NCAS Level One Coach</i></b></font>
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Dream_Merchant
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