Feeding a youngster

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Feeding a youngster

Postby Serenity » Wed Aug 24, 2005 8:12 pm

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I feed my boy purina senior development, sweet feed, hi fat hi fiber and his salts and minerals. I may be getting a 2 year old draft cross. I will be putting the little one on the same as my boy now, except for the senior development. I was thinking of the purina juvenile development but I don't know if the new guy might be too old for it now because when I read up on it they said it's for weanlings and yearlings....any suggestions? #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby Leena » Wed Aug 24, 2005 8:52 pm

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Serenity, at 2 yo, horse don't need too much protein. Just a regular 13 or 14% formula is enough, along with good hay. Are they are going on 24/7 turn out ? This is more important for your youngster than anything else for his joint and legs development.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Hope this help !#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Leena#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby Patricia » Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:29 pm

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I feed Juvenile Development to my yearlings.  I was told to feed it to rising 2 year olds.  Then they can go on a mature feed after that.  I would consult the nutritionist for Purina if that is what you feed.  Being a draft he is probably an easy keeper and Hi Fat Hi Fibre may not be the feed of choice.  They may recommend something else...#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby draftdriver » Thu Aug 25, 2005 8:06 am

Serenity, stay away from the sweet feed! I would stick with hi fat hi fibre feed, and not much of that, for a 2 year old. He probably won't need much more than hay and/or pasture, if he isn't working. Too much sweet feed in any horse can cause cribbing. Too much sweet feed in draft horses in particular, can lead to serious muscle problems (EPSM).
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Postby Serenity » Thu Aug 25, 2005 11:37 am

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Thanks for the input guys....#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Leena - I prefer my horses to have stalls....but the barn I am at now is full so the 2 yr. old would be out 24/7 with shelter for now. That makes sense too....like you said, it's good for their joints ect. Thank-you#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Patricia - I will ask Purina as well. Like you and DD said...they don't need much of the HI Fat Hi Fiber so maybe I will just feed a 1/2 scoop of that along with his minerals ect...thanks#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl# #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#DD - Thanks for the information...possibly just a handful of sweet feed then for taste??? With the 1/2 scoop if HFHF, as I said above? Also, can I still give him the salts and minerals I feed my other guy? He gets cocasoya oil...works wonders, salt and electrolytes. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby jax » Thu Aug 25, 2005 12:39 pm

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#The HFHF may be too much for a draft cross, depending on how he's built.  Any type of oil is also probably not necessary.  You do need to make sure you don't overdo it with proteins as they are growing, as this can make them grow too quickly and unevenly, which can lead to OCD.  Wait until you've had him and see if he is an easy keeper or not, and then go from there.  You may find that he won't need a lot until he gets into work.  You may also want to look into the KER products, which are really well made and researched.  They have them at Brooks in Port Perry, as well as a lot of the Co-ops now.  #ed_op#A href="http://brooksfeeds.com/products.html"#ed_cl#http://brooksfeeds.com/products.html#ed_op#/A#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby Dee22 » Thu Aug 25, 2005 1:08 pm

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I don't know much about feeding youngsters... but I have owned 2 draft crosses and they got fat on air! I'm going to agree that the HF/HF may be too much, I would also suggest to wait until you have him and see if he is an easy keeper or not... #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I, like Jax, also like the KER products, I'd check them out and the people over at Brooks are GREAT help!!#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby draftdriver » Thu Aug 25, 2005 1:23 pm

I'm not suggesting scoops and scoops of hi fat hi fibre -- just that it is a better choice than sweet feed. My biggest Belgian (Babe the Bulgian) gets 2 tbsp hi fat hi fibre at each meal, just so she's got something to eat when the rest of them do, too. She clocks in at about 1800 lbs and 16.1 hh, and she's getting this fat on rough pasture and hay, despite a grazing muzzle at night.

She has free access to salt and mineral blocks, and, of course, water. I would not suggest feeding either salt/minerals in the feed, or electrolytes. Unless your horse is in heavy training, he won't need the electrolytes at all, and force-feeding salt/minerals (i.e. in the feed) is not necessary in most horses. They'll instinctively get what they want, when they need it, from free-choice blocks. If your boy is outside, put the blocks in a large rubber pan with drain holes drilled in it, under the run-in shed roof (presuming you have one) where it will be out of the elements. I don't suggest putting the blocks right on the ground. You'll kill the grass in the vicinity, plus they'll get soggy and crumble more quickly.

There are a couple of nutrition experts who check in on this board. I hope they'll give us the benefit of their expertise on this topic.
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Postby Jakesterd » Fri Aug 26, 2005 4:30 pm

Im sorry, sometimes I just have to butt in and vent after reading a
statement on here. DraftDrivers comment "sweet feed can cause a horse
to crib" makes me cringe. In 30 years of being paid to be a
nutritionist, 30 years of conferences, 30 years of reading journals, 45
years of owning horses and feeding sweet feed plus running a mill that
some weeks sold over 25 tonnes of 1 type of sweet feed alone ( at 5
pounds per horse per day thats over 11,000 horse days of feed) I have
never ever seen anything to justify that comment.#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
Based on the feed I sold in BC alone over the 80's - 90's and they
continue to this day- almost every horse in the Fraser Valley should
have become a cribber by now. Statements like this with no scientific
validy only tend to enforce old wives tales and do a disservice to the
high quality of most of the sweet feeds out there. #ed_op#br#ed_cl#
#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
By the way - dont tell me its the molasses because I formulated many
pelleted feeds, (Senior Feeds included) with as much or more molasses
in the pellet as was applied to the sweet feed. Just cause you dont see
it doesnt mean it isnt there. I know of 1 senior pellet sold in BC that
is literally drenched in molasses yet it still looks like a normal
pellet, just darker. It has 10% molasses when most sweet feeds run 6 to
8%#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
You all get a break, im going away for a week!#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
Jake#ed_op#br#ed_cl#
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Postby Dream_Merchant » Sat Aug 27, 2005 8:24 am

<font size=2 color=#006699><b><i>
Bascially with my horses, they get plently of protein to help them grow and mature out -- they are in big paddocks with clover and plenty of naturaly pasture, but they get a feed of oats, chaff, lucrene and minerals and vitamns. I don't let them get on the fat side because I was once told it can lessen their ability to grow to their full potiential, so they are kept at a reasonable weight (I'm not saying for a minute they are slim or anything!). But defiantely keep up the vitamns and minerals and protein to help their growing bodies!

If your concerned, you can always ring a nutrientist to help you out on any questions you have -- after all, I'm just going on life expirence, not any pieces of paper I have stamped and framed on my desk! :D </b></i></font>
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Postby draftdriver » Mon Aug 29, 2005 8:47 am

Sorry Jakesterd, there is scientific proof:


From Cornell University


http://www.vet.cornell.edu/public/research/zweig/Newsletter/2002-11/index.html?/public/research/zweig/Newsletter/2002-11/story3.html~Story


From the University of Lincoln, U.K.


http://www3.vet.upenn.edu/labs/equinebehavior/hvnwkshp/hv02/mills.htm


From Equus Magazine


"New studies show that “cribbing” can occur in about 10 % of the horse population. Onset can be as early as 2 months old. This means that breeders need to look out for early signs of crib-biting in foals even before they are weaned. The data indicated a strong link between cribbing and feeding concentrates. Younsters who received sweet feed, oats and other high-energy rations were 4 times more likely to start cribbing. "
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Postby Leena » Mon Aug 29, 2005 9:47 am

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Draftdriver, #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#&nbsp;#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#As I read the articles you post, I don't see any scientific proof that sweet feed develop cribbers. My understanding is that there might be a relation in beetween the sweet taste and cribbing and they are searching on this.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Now, for the other articles, the pourcentage of horses does not support such an affirmation either. I do believe that acidity in the stomach is probably the agent for cribbing.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#&nbsp;#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#If sweet feed gives cribbers, I would had had 3 at home, which is not the case.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#&nbsp;#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#All those cribbing and weaving are certainly bummers and this is great to conduct reasearch in this fields. They will probably find out that some medicine are not design for horses, causing other troubles.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#&nbsp;#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Leena&nbsp;#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#&nbsp;#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#&nbsp;#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#&nbsp;#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#&nbsp;#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#&nbsp;#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#&nbsp;#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby graciespook » Mon Aug 29, 2005 10:44 am

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Time and time again most cribbers and horses who are prone to stable vices such as weaving, chewing and cribbing are doing so out of boredom. Out of the horses I know stabled outside with plenty of room and food all year round have little to no vices as there is plenty of stimulation to be had outside. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#&nbsp;#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Exracehorses, show horses, and stabled horses who are not provided with sufficient 'distractions' or otherwise, or are horses who just don't take well to be stabled indoors are usually the culprits for cribbers and weavers, etc etc etc. I would be interested to see cold hard proof that these habits are related to diet instead of environmental factors. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#&nbsp;#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#As for the feeding a youngster, they don't need much. More and more we'll see the line horses at two who are all bulked up. Its a lot of stress on their joints and growing muscles. Too much protein can cause a boost in growth, resulting in OCD, which we all know causes a grab bag of problems including premature arthritis. The way we feed grain these days, we all think they need a little of this, some of that, and supplements, supplements, supplements. With the babies a little grain with plenty of good quality hay, good grazing and fresh water always does the trick.We don't&nbsp;need to be overfeeding them, just like an adult horse. The trend with supplements and&nbsp;multiple grainings with&nbsp;multiple types of grain is getting out of hand. Its like those people&nbsp;who go overboard with taking herbal supplements---yes they're herbal, but like anything else, if we feed too much of something we can hurt them, and the interaction of all the different types of supplements and feeds might have a negative effect--like someone on too many types of medications. You&nbsp;can help so much you can hurt them further.&nbsp;And its like a child growing---you'll see times when they get lanky and skinny from using their fat reserves for growing, and then when they settle they'll gain the weight back. Don't let anyone tell you you need a heavy youngster!!! #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#&nbsp;#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#&nbsp;#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby Jakesterd » Fri Sep 02, 2005 4:13 pm

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#How many 2 month old horses that crib are eating large quantities of sweet feed out there?#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#&nbsp;#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#They refer to concentrate rations. Well pellets are concentrates. No mention of the formulation is given#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#&nbsp;#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Plus there is no mention of any actual peer reviewed, published, research (which is what I said up front) that #ed_op#STRONG#ed_cl#proves#ed_op#/STRONG#ed_cl# that eating mollasses coated feeds causes cribbing. #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#&nbsp;#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#JD#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Question for Jake (I think) +others re. ephiphyisitis + feed

Postby melboro » Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:36 pm

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Hi, #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I'm new to this forum and find the discussions interesting.&nbsp; #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I currently have 8 horses, 2 of which are yearlings and 2 new sucklings.&nbsp; 2 Paint colts and 2 warmblood fillies.&nbsp; Another warmblood filly on the way for next year.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#&nbsp;#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Before you all think that I'm a total incompetent (I feel really stupid and #ed_op#U#ed_cl##ed_op#STRONG#ed_cl#guilty#ed_op#/STRONG#ed_cl##ed_op#/U#ed_cl# about this one!!), my 2004 easy keeper Paint colt got epiphysitis in his fetlocks.&nbsp; By the time I figured it out, it was too late and there was deviation at the fetlock level.&nbsp; He now toes in quite severly on one foot and a little less on the other.&nbsp; Corrective trimming has done wonders but...#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Now, what I had done was feed these babies totally wrong!!&nbsp; (They say you pay to learn...)&nbsp; I tried to give them the best and ended up screwing him up.&nbsp; Thankfully, my warmblood filly had a lot more growth capacity and was able to assimilate all that 'great' feed I was putting to her (a little soaked beet pulp, to keep the dust down, EconoFoin from coop - a cubed hay, and Purina young horse feed, a handful of Fat&amp;Fiber, you get the picture...- ok, ok...).&nbsp;#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#&nbsp;#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#My vet said it wasn't necessary to feed these babies til they were round and rather, to keep them&nbsp;on the thin side, without starving them.&nbsp; She said I could worry about putting weight on them when they were a 2 or 3 yr old and that showing a little rib was not necessarily a bad thing.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#&nbsp;#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Now, I have 2 new babies this year, still sucking.&nbsp; The Paint is full brother to last year's and is a true stock-type easykeeper.&nbsp; He nibbles out of mom's dish, a 14% sweetfeed.&nbsp; #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#My question (yeah, after all that!!):&nbsp; am I going to screw this one up too?&nbsp; #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#&nbsp;#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#How do you know when is too much and when is not enough?&nbsp; What about my warmblood filly?&nbsp; She should finish almost 17hh and is a giant now but still very dainty.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#&nbsp;#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#They are currently and recently on medium to poor pasture.&nbsp; There is a Purina horse feed block outside for them to nibble on but the pasture is huge and they are not always at it.&nbsp; 25Kg lasts a week to 10 days with all of them outside.&nbsp; #ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Should I be looking to compensate with some concentrates?&nbsp; Up until last week when I gave them some old and chewed down pasture, the yearlings were getting about 1kg 2x day of 14% sweetfeed and the babies were sharing the same with their moms.&nbsp; Now they just have pasture and block.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#&nbsp;#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Is this ok?#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Sorry this sounds so disjointed...#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Thanks for any replies#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#&nbsp;#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#Hilda#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#&nbsp;#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#&nbsp;#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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Postby Ruth » Sat Sep 03, 2005 12:31 pm

#ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I am no feed expert, and if you are lucky maybe Jakesterd who is an animal nutritionist will be able to help you, but:#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#First get your hay/pasture analysed, that is the bulk of what your horses eat anyway, and unless you know what's in that you don't know what you need to add.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I keep my youngsters on the thin side too. We just had to wean the WB filly at 4 months due to rapid growth issues. She has had nothing but hay and a half cup of Optimal 2X day for the last 3 weeks, and yes, she&nbsp; looks a little Ethiopian, but her tendons and ligaments have now had a chance to catch up to her bones. Her front pasterns are now at a more normal angle and her joints are nice and cool. I have now added a handful of Juvenile Development, and will increase that gradually.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#I have my own question while on this subject. I do need to do hay analysis myself for this year, and this issue is aways off, I need some help with ideas about feeding the mother of the aforementioned foal.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#This foal was born with 2 contracted tendons and a varus angulus, all of which have resolved nicely, but this was due to the fact she was quite a big foal out of a 15.2hh mare. I bought the mare when she was in foal, so did not choose the stallion, who is over 17hh. The foal due next year is by a smaller stallion. I did not overfeed this mare at the end of her pregnancy, in fact by the time she was hitting the last trimester she would not eat much grain, and by the end of the pregnancy wouldn't eat grain at all. I didn't have the hay analysed last year, but typically the protein content has been around 11-12% from the same producer.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#So I'm trying to figure out what to feed her to result in a healthy, but not so large, foal. Preventing OCD is my prime concern, and I am not interested in her having huge babies, size is not a big concern for me, but health is.#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl##ed_op#DIV#ed_cl#&nbsp;#ed_op#/DIV#ed_cl#
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